some more red meat for all the N54 moralists

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I am currently mixed up in a situation where I unknowingly purchased stolen items. A lady came into my store and sold me some customized McFarlane football figurines that were all made into former Nebraska football players. The customs were in packages and were professionally made, I gave her a substantial amount of money for them. I placed all 15 of them on ebay and they were up to about $500 after 3 days. I got a question from an ebayer asking me where I'd gotten them. I told him that I bought them from someone who came to my store. He then told me they were stolen from him 3 years ago. I asked him to send me the police report and the next day he did. I called the police and they told me I needed to contact the police in his town (about 100 miles from me). They asked me a bunch of questions and then they asked the Lincoln police to come and take pics of the items. I also gave them her info as I only pay people via check and get their driver's license. I assume paying by check and taking ID deters thieves from even trying to sell to me. The cops told me that the lady has a warrant, but they didn't tell me what it was for.

I do believe these items were stolen from the guy, they all matched up with what was on the police report from three years ago although there were hundreds of items listed that the lady did not bring to me. The police do not seem very interested in pursuing this and said the guy was paid by insurance for the theft. I'm not so sure the local police are pursing it either because the lady came back into my store a few days ago trying to sell me baseball cards (no baseball cards were on the police report list). I took her aside and explained to her that the items she brought me a few weeks ago were stolen, she then told me a different story than the original story she gave me when she sold the figures to me. She said the figures were in her dad's possession and he had passed away. This time she told me she bought them from some guy she didn't know. As she was leaving I took her license plate down and gave it to the police, but still haven't heard anything from them.

The original owner has not contacted me since sending me the police report, but I'm wondering what the legal ownership of these items are since he was paid via insurance for them. If he was paid for what he valued the items at then it was more than I would have expected to get for them on ebay. He also had a lot of common NASCAR and Star Wars toys stolen from him that he overvalued as well. The police report states that the storage unit they were stolen from had no damage to the lock, and they found the lock on the inside of the unit.

I believe if the insurance company paid the claim, they are the new owner of the items... not unlike totaling a car, insurance pays the claim and they take the car...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

I believe if the insurance company paid the claim, they are the new owner of the items... not unlike totaling a car, insurance pays the claim and they take the car...

I think that's right because most insurance policies will have what's called a right of salvage provision.

[autograf]

I'm aware of all the A, B & M parties as others on the thread are. My understanding is that A wouldn't press charges against the brother so he gets off scott free. My thoughts are maybe M should have given the cards to someone to hold in escrow until A, B & M could figure something out (my undertstanding is another dealer is also between the brother and B).

Without holding the brother accountable, who's to say this won't happen again and put dealer D and collector K in the mix too? A's REAL beef should have been with his brother and sounds like nothing ever happened there unless I don't have all the story. In addition, looks like B, M and the other dealer between the brother and B should have somehow shared the misery three ways, maybe? I don't know.

Not sure how, especially at a card show, or how these guys buy groups of cards and collections of cards that you can fully insulate yourself from buying stolen merchandise. I know when I've sold stuff to dealers at shows no one's ever gotten my ID nor in few cases paid with a check. Seems like it's a perfect situation for moving stolen goods..........a shame for all in the loop really. I'm sure B has lost a LOT of business based on their actions as well.

[Jacklitsch]

Tom, how can you say B has lost a lot of business when most of us don't know who B is?

[Jacklitsch]

For those of you in the know, good for you. For the rest of us it's caveat emptor.

[timn1]

my friend gives me permission to do it. If he doesn't, then I would point out that there are ways for smart people to find these things out - I can't tell you myself, but many other people do know...

[Exhibitman]

The insurer who pays out typically has a subrogation right--it steps into the shoes of the insured for purposes of pursuing the person who caused the damage. Most personal articles policies also have language expressly transferring rights to damaged or recovered items to the insurer if payment is made to the insured on the policy.

I have no compunctions about naming the dealer, except I can't recall his name. I know he sets up at the National and has a wife who is very visible as part of the business. She is usually at the table over-dressed for the occasion, which in the case of a card show means she is usually wearing female clothing without visible scars, tattoos or a fanny pack.

As for the case itself, I see it this way:

I don't believe in 'moral' when it comes to commerce: there is legal and illegal.

Virtually no jurisdiction allows a thief to pass good title to a stolen object (there are a few bona fide purchaser laws in Texas for example that might allow it in certain circumstances, but this all went down in states that aren't run by moonbats). Doesn't matter how remote or how many times it is resold, title to the card is no good and the actual owner can recover it. Think of it this way: I steal the Mona Lisa and sell it to you and you can resell it a hundred times to a hundred different purchasers...doesn't mean the end buyer owns it because I never owned it; the lady goes back to Paris if the French authorities come a knocking. So, M never acquired good title to the cards because the dealer never had title to them because he purchased from a thief. The actual owner has the right to go into court and demand that M return his cards or pay the value of them. IMO, M did the right thing but he also did the thing that any decent attorney would have told him was the thing he would be compelled to do if push came to shove. M has a right against the dealer (what the heck is his name?) for what Peter already alluded to--breach of an implied warranty of good title to the merch. The dealer has the right to sue A's junkie brother for the cost he is out. A also can sue the brother and perhaps the grandparents for allowing the known junkie-criminal access to the cards in the first place.

[drcy]

I don't know the people and the details of this story, but just realize that normal and legal practice is to give refund to a person who was the direct buyer. Period. With stolen items and a chain of ownership, refund/return is given down the line of owners. It is very problematic giving refund to someone who wasn't your buyer-- especially if you don't know them. At the very least, there had better be good proof that the items were stolen.

In other cases, I find it problematic when the people on hobby boards criticize a big auction house or dealer refuses to refund years later to someone who never bought the item from them. If the hobby expects this and does not expect the refundee to provide significant proof the items were stolen and of the chain of ownership, the auctioneer or dealer could theoretically be giving out refunds to multiple people on one item. I've heard a big auction house say "I've never sold anything to this person and have never met him. Why should I be handing him over money?"-- which is a reasonable (and legally correct) argument.

As mentioned, A's main beef and source of getting money back is with his brother. And, at the very least, if he expects money back from the third or whatever generation buyer, he'd better have insurance claim papers or police report to prove the items were stolen.

If the parties want to cut a deal and do things differently because they think that's the right thing to do, that is fine and acceptable, but legally M never owed refund directly to A. That's not to say A does not get a refund or the cards back, but this is not the way the law says it is to be done. Judges often say (to the effect) "You have a legitimate case, but you've sued the wrong person."