Opinions on the "GOAT" (Boxing)

[Dpeck100]

It is definitely nice to see his stuff more sought after this point.

In 2010 what gave me the idea to look for his cards was watching his ESPN DVD The Best of Mike Tyson.

I just was blown away at what a wrecking machine he was. Boxers for good reason were legit scared to fight the guy.

I think social media is why he stuff has become more collected. Youtube has done wonders for his appeal.

He may not rank high with boxing enthusiasts but for many fans he was the pinnacle of boxing during their lifetime and that probably influences their opinion a great deal. I fall into this category.

[Arazi4442]

Tyson was a completely different fighter after the death of Cus D'Amato. I think that's one of the reasons it's so difficult to rank him all-time. Early in his career he was a knockout machine, to the point that many heavyweights fought him but wouldn't engage him for a second, even in title fights. (Similar to Foreman before the Ali fight) Watch the Mitch Green fight or "Bonecrusher" Smith. Those guys were legitimate heavyweights in the late 80s and early 90s and wanted no part of a young Tyson.

I prefer to remember that fighter and would absolutely put him in my top 5 all-time heavyweight fighters. After Cus' death, he lost a lot of discipline and started getting into all kinds of trouble outside the ring. That's the Tyson most detractors remember and pretty much ruined his legacy, IMO.

[Exhibitman]

Well I guess peak performance is one way to look at them too. Of course, that would include the Jack Dempsey who pulverized Jess Willard's face, the Joe Louis who fractured Max Schmeling's vertebrae, etc. Like I said, some very, very tough guys.

[Dpeck100]

I have to assume the gloves were less padded in the earlier days so those shots had to really hurt.

Were there a lot of blood baths back in the days?

[profholt82]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have to assume the gloves were less padded in the earlier days so those shots had to really hurt.

Were there a lot of blood baths back in the days?

If you go way back, during the latter 19th century there was a gloved champion and a bare knuckle champion. John L. Sullivan notably held both titles at one point. While I wasn't there, certainly there must have been many a blood bath in those days.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I think another reason why Tyson is more popular than his actual ranking is the state of the sport of boxing. Most of the guys we're talking about fought when boxing was one of, if not the, most popular sports in America. When Tyson fought, boxing was a wasteland of fraud, criminals, and drugs. He stood out more in that era because there wasn't much else at the time. For those collecting boxing cards of fighters they saw, who are they going to be drawn to? Of course it's going to be the carnival show that was Mike Tyson.

Arthur

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I just was blown away at what a wrecking machine he was. Boxers for good reason were legit scared to fight the guy.

David, have you read Tyson's autobiography from 4-5 years ago? It is an amazing read; he is brutally honest and reflective. One of the anecdotes he tells in the book is a story of walking down the street a few years ago and hearing a young girl tell her father, "Hey, there's Mike Tyson, the actor from 'The Hangover.'" It was at that moment that it dawned on Tyson that an entire generation does not have any idea that he was once the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Tyson talks about every major fight he had and the back story behind each fight. Tyson talked about the pre-fight staredown in the middle of the ring before a fight and that if a guy did not look him in the eye, Tyson knew the guy was scared. One guy Tyson mentions in particular as being scared was Frank Bruno, who Tyson said drew a cross on his chest with his finger numerous times before their first fight.

If I am not mistake, don't you work as a financial adviser? If so, you will probably appreciate this story. Tyson talked about pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars and having a forensic accountant examine his finances. One of the things the accountant found was a long forgotten IRA that Cus D'Amato had set up for Tyson shortly before D'Amato died.

The IRA had grown to $250,000 by the time Tyson's accountant found it. Upon being informed that D'Amato had set up this IRA for him, Tyson sat and cried because D'Amato was the only guy who wasn't trying to rip him off financially.

Tyson is brutally honest in the book when talking about his low self-esteem, depression, self-hatred.

[D. Bergin]

I regularly park across the street from Tyson's old house in Farmington, CT (50 Cents house now), to access a hiking trail near where I live.

The thing is gargantuan. It's no wonder Tyson went broke........and 50 Cent is following suit.................and I think at the time, it was only one of several houses he owned at the same time.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

David, have you read Tyson's autobiography from a 4-5 years ago? It is an amazing read; he is brutally honest and reflective. One of the anecdotes he tells in the book is a story of walking down the street a few years ago and hearing a young girl tell her father, "Hey, there's Mike Tyson, the actor from 'The Hangover.'" It was at that moment that it dawned on Tyson that an entire generation does not have any idea that he was once the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Tyson talks about every major fight he had and the back story behind each fight. Tyson talked about the pre-fight staredown in the middle of the ring before a fight and that if a guy did not look him in the eye, Tyson knew the guy was scared. One guy Tyson mentions in particular as being scared was Frank Bruno, who Tyson said drew a cross on his chest with his finger numerous times before their first fight.

If I am not mistake, don't you work as a financial adviser? If so, you will probably appreciate this story. Tyson talked about pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars and having a forensic accountant examine his finances. One of the things the accountant found was a long forgotten IRA that Cus D'Amato had set up for Tyson shortly before D'Amato died.

The IRA had grown to $250,000 by the time Tyson's accountant found it. Upon being informed that D'Amato had set up this IRA for him, Tyson sat and cried because D'Amato was the only guy who wasn't trying to rip him off financially.

Tyson is brutally honest in the book when talking about his low self-esteem, depression, self-hatred.

Great post.

I do have the book but haven't made it very far with it. It is a tough read early on when talking about his childhood. Your post already convinced me I need to pick it back up.

Yes I am a financial advisor and it is amazing what money can do if left untouched. It is easier said than done with the 24 hour news cycle.

Just to out of curiosity I watched some Foreman clips and he fought a bunch of out of shape guys too.

What is interesting to me about the collectability of Tyson is when I first started posting on card message boards it was because I was researching the Tyson sticker and found a post on CU talking about the little bidding war I got into with another collector in 2010 and signed up to comment. I won the sticker for $82 and immediately went and cleaned out Martin Bradford who was the only person with stickers for sale. I bought 4 more of the Panini for $15 to $25 a pop and three of the 88 ones for something similar. I started posting about it and most thought because of Tyson's personal history they had no chance to rise. Thankfully a seller from Cyprus had a hoard of the 86 Panini and I loaded up on pack fresh copies. Myself and another guy from the CU board sent in copies to PSA at the same time and his popped first and was a UK back and mine second which was the first Italian back to be graded. I was thrilled when they ran up initially and shocked when they doubled basically overnight and while they have backed off a little I still think they are under priced relative to other major rookies. Time will tell. I sold off a good number over the years and now have a 10 which I bought, 5 9's, an 8 and a UK 8 and a beater. I am waiting to buy a UK 10 because it isn't the rookie and overtime the market is more broadly realizing it. I get emails from random people asking to buy one of my copies but they are staying in my collection.

[Exhibitman]

Nice story on the Panini Tysons. If I'd cleaned house on them back in the day I'd probably be more of a booster too. I didn't get on that train but I am hoping that Anthony Joshua pans out (salted away some 2012 Panini Adrenalyn when the pickings were easy).

Paninis are under-respected generally. If you're trying for a HOF collection as I am and you want career-issued cards I think you more or less have to have several Paninis in there: 1973 Duran, Foreman 1982 Hagler 1986 Tyson 1988 Chavez. There are quite a few other HOFers with cards and/or RCs in the sets, but these are really the biggest names' earliest cards. What I find curious is the lack of respect for them relative to other sets like the Mira Tuttosport. Man are those cards pricey by comparison. I have a middle of the road specimen in my type cards because I don't want to pay up to improve it. I also don't think the market prices in the Panini Valida backs accordingly.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Nice story on the Panini Tysons. If I'd cleaned house on them back in the day I'd probably be more of a booster too. I didn't get on that train but I am hoping that Anthony Joshua pans out (salted away some 2012 Panini Adrenalyn when the pickings were easy).

Paninis are under-respected generally. If you're trying for a HOF collection as I am and you want career-issued cards I think you more or less have to have several Paninis in there: 1973 Duran, Foreman 1982 Hagler 1986 Tyson 1988 Chavez. There are quite a few other HOFers with cards and/or RCs in the sets, but these are really the biggest names' earliest cards. What I find curious is the lack of respect for them relative to other sets like the Mira Tuttosport. Man are those cards pricey by comparison. I have a middle of the road specimen in my type cards because I don't want to pay up to improve it. I also don't think the market prices in the Panini Valida backs accordingly.

What gave me more confidence that Tyson was a winner is the legacy of Panini boxing. I just couldn't see how my generations boxing king wouldn't be valuable.

In general boxing seems under priced. I don't have a connection to most of it so it really isn't for me but I think those that do will be rewarded one day. You can't just get on EBAY and find what you are looking for.

Yes I am a booster! 1982-83 Wrestling All Stars and Mike Tyson! Haha.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

David, you practically single-handedly created the Panini Tyson market. You either bought or bid up every one that hit eBay for a period of time all while posting nonstop on CU about them and boasting about how their value would soar. I don't expect you to take a different stance on Tyson the boxer for obvious reasons but I thought a little transparency might be good for the conversation.

Arthur

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

David, you practically single-handedly created the Panini Tyson market. You either bought or bid up every one that hit eBay for a period of time all while posting nonstop on CU about them and boasting about how their value would soar. I don't expect you to take a different stance on Tyson the boxer for obvious reasons but I thought a little transparency might be good for the conversation.

Arthur

Yes that is true. I was very optimistic about the potential and was quite vocal about it.

I did the same thing with the wrestling cards. I have no problem disclosing any of my motives because everyone was wrong any ways. I still have at least 99% of the cards I have purchased. My grand pump and dump never came to be.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I am waiting to buy a UK 10 because it isn't the rookie and overtime the market is more broadly realizing it.

So only the Italian back is his RC and not the UK version? Weren't they released the same year? Please explain. Thanks.

[Dpeck100]

The Italian is 86 and the UK is 87. I figured it out when I read the back of a U.K. and it talked about a tennis tournament from 87. Getting my haircut and will update further later. Think it was Australian open. It also has a 87 copyright on the album.

[Dpeck100]

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ajor-update/p5


Here is the thread. It is the Australian Open. I posted in another thread the initial proof with the info from the back but forgot which one it was and wrote French Open here.


BGS started labeling them from 1987 first and now PSA does.


The UK back is cool but not the rookie.

[Dpeck100]

Here is the SMR info.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The Italian is 86 and the UK is 87. I figured it out when I read the back of a U.K. and it talked about a tennis tournament from 87. Getting my haircut and will update further later. Think it was Australian open. It also has a 87 copyright on the album.

The UK version is from 1987? O H M Y G O D ! ! ! Think of all the "rookie investors" who spent thousands of dollars on the PSA 10 UK version. Now that we know it's a second-year card, it's obviously worth way less. These guys lost lots of money due to PSA's error. I do own one UK version, and it's a PSA 8, but I didn't spend too much on it - thank God I didn't go after the 9s and 10s! PSA incorrectly labeled mine as the Italian version and put the year down as 1985 - that's TWO errors on one label! They really have no clue what they're doing, do they?

So Does Tyson have 3 second-year Panini cards?

- UK Foil (#109)
- UK Supersport (#153)
- Italian Supersport (#160)

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

The UK version is from 1987? O H M Y G O D ! ! ! Think of all the "rookie investors" who spent thousands of dollars on the PSA 10 UK version. Now that we know it's a second-year card, it's obviously worth way less. These guys lost lots of money due to PSA's error. I do own one UK version, and it's a PSA 8, but I didn't spend too much on it - thank God I didn't go after the 9s and 10s! PSA incorrectly labeled mine as the Italian version and put the year down as 1985 - that's TWO errors on one label! They really have no clue what they're doing, do they?

So Does Tyson have 3 second-year Panini cards?

- UK Foil (#109)
- UK Supersport (#153)
- Italian Supersport (#160)

I have no clue how many 10's there really are. The combined pop reports show 11 but I know for fact there are one or two UK copies labeled Italian and of those 5 are UK currently.

Here are the first two I got graded. I wrote in 1986 but they labeled them 1985.


1 1 18761404 MINT 9 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card
1 2 18761405 MINT 9 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card


I just checked and they are back in the 1985 population report!


Here is the next wave. They too are back in the 1985 population totals.


11 1 18632577 MINT 9 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card
12 1 18632578 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card
13 1 18632579 MINT 9 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card


Okay this is really odd. Now these that were graded as 86 show 85 for Italian and it shows the UK as 1987. All slabbed 1986.

9 1 19707443 MINT 9 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card
9 2 19707444 NEAR MINT 7 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card
9 3 19707445 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 Panini Supersport Italian 153 Mike Tyson Card
10 1 19707447 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1987 Panini Supersport UK 153 Mike Tyson Card



Yes whomever purchased the UK PSA 10's did buy a second year card. With it being the same image it will remain popular but defiantly not the rookie.


These are the following Panini Tyson's in order.

1986 Panini Italian #153

1987 Foil UK #109

1987 Panini UK #153

1988 Panini #160 Bianchi Back (most common) Supersport Back and Gritti Back.


I am even more confused at this point about the actual population totals than ever before.


My PSA 10 shows in the 1986 Totals.


https://www.psacard.com/cert/21309877/

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Great post.

I do have the book but haven't made it very far with it. It is a tough read early on when talking about his childhood. Your post already convinced me I need to pick it back up.

Yes I am a financial advisor and it is amazing what money can do if left untouched. It is easier said than done with the 24 hour news cycle.

Just to out of curiosity I watched some Foreman clips and he fought a bunch of out of shape guys too.

What is interesting to me about the collectability of Tyson is when I first started posting on card message boards it was because I was researching the Tyson sticker and found a post on CU talking about the little bidding war I got into with another collector in 2010 and signed up to comment. I won the sticker for $82 and immediately went and cleaned out Martin Bradford who was the only person with stickers for sale. I bought 4 more of the Panini for $15 to $25 a pop and three of the 88 ones for something similar. I started posting about it and most thought because of Tyson's personal history they had no chance to rise. Thankfully a seller from Cyprus had a hoard of the 86 Panini and I loaded up on pack fresh copies. Myself and another guy from the CU board sent in copies to PSA at the same time and his popped first and was a UK back and mine second which was the first Italian back to be graded. I was thrilled when they ran up initially and shocked when they doubled basically overnight and while they have backed off a little I still think they are under priced relative to other major rookies. Time will tell. I sold off a good number over the years and now have a 10 which I bought, 5 9's, an 8 and a UK 8 and a beater. I am waiting to buy a UK 10 because it isn't the rookie and overtime the market is more broadly realizing it. I get emails from random people asking to buy one of my copies but they are staying in my collection.

By all means, dive back into the Tyson book. It is hard to put down once he turns pro and gives background on what so many of his opponents were like outside the ring and the craziness that was going on in Tyson's life.

I don't want to give too much away, because it is such an amazing read. But Tyson said Larry Holmes told him that he (Tyson) is not a pimple on Holmes' ass and that Holmes was the real legend. Holmes further told Tyson that he will eventually destroy himself, which Tyson conceded was correct.

Tyson talked about how much it pissed him off to hear everyone talk about what a great guy Evander Holyfield was because he would constantly "talk that Jesus shit." Meanwhile, Holyfield would constantly hit on the break and rabbit punch. As I was reading the book, I would often put it down and go watch YouTube clips to see what Tyson was talking about regarding a particular fight.

Tyson is completely up front in stating that he was an arrogant asshole when he was 21 years old. One of the things he really feels bad about now was Pinklon Thomas sticking his hand out to shake Tyson's hand at the pre-fight press conference. Tyson responded by telling Thomas that he should get down on his knees and perform a sex act just for having the chance to share a ring with Tyson.

The book is very r-rated.

One other quick anecdote is that Tyson talks about Marvis Frazier (famously destroyed in 30 seconds by Tyson) being way too nice a guy to be involved in a scummy sport like boxing. Tyson wrote that Marvis Frazier really didn't want to box, but was only doing so to try and make his father proud.

Yes, Foreman did fight some stiffs. But my post was largely in the context that he was viewed as an unbeatable killing machine by the time he fought Ali in Zaire. Ali was viewed as being old and having no shot at the guy who had completely destroyed Joe Frazier to win the title.