Can someone explain these PSA grades?

[The-Cardfather]

I recently submitted these three 1975 Hostess cards to PSA for grading. I cut them myself from a pristine box using a professional cutting tool. I made sure that each card measured 2 & 1/2 by 3 & 1/2 inches so they wouldn't utilize a mylar sleeve (which aesthetically, I hate). I also made sure that the dotted lines remained intact and were well within my cuts. I fully expected all three cards to receive a grade of 10. I would have been disappointed if they received a 9 and an 8 would have surprised me. But I was absolutely dumbfounded when they each came back to me with a grade of 5. Am I missing something here? Can anyone explain this? Also, does anyone know if PSA has an appeal (for lack of a better word) process?

[RaidonCollects]

I just had a look at some 9 and 10s on ebay and it looks like they were cut down to the dotted line border. Maybe the grading standards need that size card for higher grades?

Owen

[glynparson]

usually a card graded a 5 that appears to be mint may have either some sort of staining or hidden wrinkles or creasing or factory indentations (such as roller marks). also if cut on severe angels even if extra it can and does effect the grade.

[puckpaul]

it was cut from a box, what does a 9 or 10 mean anyway?

[Republicaninmass]

IME a 5 is a wrinkle on the back, a 3 is a wrinkle on the front. All box bottoms are very tough, and usually have some printing or handling defects under close inspection

[swarmee]

Your centering and tilt on them are also pretty bad; If you are going to add that much border, you needed to have the dotted lines centered. Your goal of having 2.5x3.5 cards was probably unnecessary. You could still crack those cards out, trim them closer, and likely get a much higher grade.
That is presuming the backs are clean and no wrinkles.

[swarmee]

"PSA suggests that, in order to achieve the highest grades, the cuts of the cards should be relatively close to the visible borders without exceeding the limit. Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades. Eye appeal is very important. When it comes to excess paper or cardboard around the edges of the visible borders, the graders will place significant importance on overall eye appeal."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

[T205 GB]

they are all graded accurately with the cards being off center for the cause

[Snapolit1]

This whole well-intentioned knowledgeable discussion lays bare the lunacy of the whole grading discussion. If you cut a card from a box but cut closer to the dotted lines we will give you a better grade. LOL. Try explaining the logic behind this this to someone who hasn't drank the purple kool aid like most of us have. Wouldn't the best state of all be not cutting off the box in the first place?

[bobbyw8469]

Agree with others....you have entirely too much border and you made no account for centering whatsoever when you cut. Only size. Therefore you have no choice but to crack them out and get closer to the lines.

[rjackson44]

steve that's funny

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

I just had a look at some 9 and 10s on ebay and it looks like they were cut down to the dotted line border. Maybe the grading standards need that size card for higher grades?

Owen

Spot on +1

[rsdill2]

Originally Posted by The Cardfather

I fully expected all three cards to receive a grade of 10. I would have been disappointed if they received a 9 and an 8 would have surprised me.

When submitting to a TPG, never expect a 10 (or a 9...or maybe even an 8)

[Webster]

I just submitted some 52 Wheaties for grading at PSA. Was told "we no longer give numerical grades to hand cut cards" (They were slabbed Authentic, despite a full, crisp, cut).

Do they, or don't they currently give numerical grades to hand cut cards?

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by rsdill2

When submitting to a TPG, never expect a 10 (or a 9...or maybe even an 8)

+1

[sflayank]

Read psa grading guidelines
They specifically state cards should be cut close to border for highest grades

[SMPEP]

The real question isn't "why didn't these cards get a 9 or 10?"

The real question is "Why on Earth would PSA give these numerical grade in the first place as they are obviously the wrong size?"

Another good question is "IF you choose to assign a grade to these, why on Earth would you choose a 5?" That seems pretty random. You could argue for a 1-3 (wrong size), or any number 7-10 (because these could be NM) just as easily as a 5. Which is all the more reason to assign an A grade.

[jhs5120]

Centering matters with hand cut cards. They don’t give the “OC” designation, but hose won’t grade about a 5 either.

[frankbmd]

Resubmit to Lucky Larry.

Guaranteed all will be 10s.

[The-Cardfather]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and input.

There were no defects on the reverse of any of the cards, so I have to assume that it was a centering issue. But it doesn't make any sense. The "card" is what is within the dotted lines. Anything outside of those dotted lines should be irrelevant.

In trying to avoid the dreaded mylar sleeve, I seem to have outsmarted myself.

Don't worry Steve, I won't drink the Kool-Aid. LOL.

[CW]

This is what you want to shoot for:

[the 'stache]

Agreed completely.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

This whole well-intentioned knowledgeable discussion lays bare the lunacy of the whole grading discussion. If you cut a card from a box but cut closer to the dotted lines we will give you a better grade. LOL. Try explaining the logic behind this this to someone who hasn't drank the purple kool aid like most of us have. Wouldn't the best state of all be not cutting off the box in the first place?

[the 'stache]

To meet his objective, the OP should crack the cards, in essence "trim them" to meet this example's measurements, resubmit them to PSA, and then he'll be rewarded with a higher grade.

I felt dirty typing that out.

Originally Posted by CW

This is what you want to shoot for:

[bxb]

Originally Posted by The Cardfather

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and input.

There were no defects on the reverse of any of the cards, so I have to assume that it was a centering issue. But it doesn't make any sense. The "card" is what is within the dotted lines. Anything outside of those dotted lines should be irrelevant.

In trying to avoid the dreaded mylar sleeve, I seem to have outsmarted myself.

Don't worry Steve, I won't drink the Kool-Aid. LOL.

I have several hand cut 10s, and the common denominator is they are cut to the dotted border.

Have them professionally cut with the borders showing, and write on the PSA order a request for no mylar sleeves.

[glynparson]

Not sure why some are confused that a better cut, hand cut card, receives a higher a grade than a poorly cut one. Seems like pretty much common sense to me. What do you want the better cuts to have lower grades? If you are against number grades at all fine but to think the cut or the centering of the image shouldn't matter does not make any sense at all.

[Snapolit1]

Say you were walking home one night and discovered a new Banksy painting on a brick wall near your house. Do you think someone in the art world would say you need to cut it out of the wall and trim it as carefully as you can for it to be really valuable and considered highly “graded”. I doubt it. I think any intelligent art collector would say best not to alter it.

[Snapolit1]

Maybe it’s just me, but I actually find the whole idea that a collector needs to alter something or modify it for it to be a more desirable collectible a very interesting topic and kind of goes to the essence of the whole collecting thing. Whatever that is. It’s like people who collect hummells or anything else. The piece is what it is it but the collector thinks he is going beyond that with the presentation, accumulation etc. For many of us in this hobby the something extra is grading. You take the original and do something with it.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Say you were walking home one night and discovered a new Banksy painting on a brick wall near your house. Do you think someone in the art world would say you need to cut it out of the wall and trim it as carefully as you can for it to be really valuable and considered highly “graded”. I doubt it. I think any intelligent art collector would say best not to alter it.

They were MEANT to be cut off the box, hence the dotted lines...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Not sure why some are confused that a better cut, hand cut card, receives a higher a grade than a poorly cut one. Seems like pretty much common sense to me. What do you want the better cuts to have lower grades? If you are against number grades at all fine but to think the cut or the centering of the image shouldn't matter does not make any sense at all.

I find this whole discussion kind of crazy. They are hand cut cards from boxes. Who in the heck cares what they grade (obviously some do)? The grading of them is purely marketing, to me. If you don't like the way they look cut them some more until you do. (see Steve's post #9 too)

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

They were MEANT to be cut off the box, hence the dotted lines...

Realize that. But why would something removed inherenty be more valuable or desirable. The one of the box uncut may be pretty perfect untouched. Would someone say a uncut sheet of Goudeys is less important than a cut stack of them?

[frankbmd]

The real value of these cards would undoubted be enhanced if one could find an unopened case of the 1975 Hostess boxes containing 12 or 24 boxes.

Imagine the enjoyment your grandchildren would derive from cutting out the cards on these boxes, not to mention the nutritional benefit they would get from consuming a case of 42 year old Twinkies.

[the 'stache]

Toss in some good ol' 1970s Topps wax pack bubble gum, and you've got a taste explosion in your mouth, Frank!

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The real value of these cards would undoubted be enhanced if one could find an unopened case of the 1975 Hostess boxes containing 12 or 24 boxes.

Imagine the enjoyment your grandchildren would derive from cutting out the cards on these boxes, not to mention the nutritional benefit they would get from consuming a case of 42 year old Twinkies.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

This whole well-intentioned knowledgeable discussion lays bare the lunacy of the whole grading discussion. If you cut a card from a box but cut closer to the dotted lines we will give you a better grade. LOL. Try explaining the logic behind this this to someone who hasn't drank the purple kool aid like most of us have. Wouldn't the best state of all be not cutting off the box in the first place?

+1. Very well put.

I believe the key is to keep trimming them until you get a grade of at least 8. I hear that worked for some guy named Bill, with a T206 Wagner.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

+1. Very well put.

I believe the key is to keep trimming them until you get a grade of at least 8. I hear that worked for some guy named Bill, with a T206 Wagner.

Rarely seen image of the true first slab from PSA:

[The-Cardfather]

Originally Posted by bxb

Have them professionally cut with the borders showing, and write on the PSA order a request for no mylar sleeves.

PSA won't honor any such request (for no mylar sleeves). Below is an excerpt from an e-mail I received from their customer service manager in September of 2016.

"PSA places cards in Mylar Sleeves to preserve the grade of the card, if we feel it may shift inside the holder. We have many different types of holders but some cards don’t always fit the dimensions. We are required to do this as our company's work is based on the grading of cards and thus, the preservation of that grade within the holder. With that said, we have the right to place a card in a Mylar Sleeve if we feel it is best for the card. Furthermore, with the volume of cards we encapsulate on a daily basis, it is not feasible to check the notes left about specific instructions on Mylar Sleeve requests. That department works hard to make sure collectibles are preserved and well-maintained inside our holders per our company policy. The customer service department has attempted to meet your requests, but our sealing department has their own standards to uphold. So, with all due respect, we can no longer meet your written request of encapsulating cards without a Mylar Sleeve............due to your undesirability of the Mylar Sleeves. I apologize if this is not understandable or upsetting. It is not my intention to push our customer base away."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Rarely seen image of the true first slab from PSA:

Now that is funny. What would Mastro say?

[KingFisk]

Just chiming into say this has been a really interesting thread. A couple more fascinating insights gleaned on what goes on over at PSA.