Messi Makes Same Mistake as Pele

[packs]

Messi doesn't play for Spain in World play. He has 25 goals in World Cup qualifiers and another 5 in the tournament itself. I'd say that's pretty definitive. He doesn't need the players on Barcelona to be Messi.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Given Pele's virtually unanimous status as the greatest player ever, I question the whole premise of this thread, that significant questions remain about how great he was.

[samosa4u]

Pele made his Santos debut in 1956, when he was only 15 years old. He remained with the club until 1974. So that's 19 seasons with Santos - pretty much his whole career. After that he retired.

Now his buddy who was the owner of the Cosmos - Steve Ross I believe was his name - must have asked Pele numerous times to come to America. The whole purpose was to try to bring increased awareness of the sport to the country. Pele was way past his prime, but he eventually agreed to do it.

One of the most common arguments soccer critics tend to bring up goes something like this: would Pele have been able to replicate his Brazilian success in Europe? Would he have been able to score numerous goals against bigger and stronger opponents, week after week, month after month and year after year? Yes, Santos did play some exhibition games in Europe throughout the 1960s, but that's different.

And finally, what the heck does playing in NASL have anything to do with this? He was already retired, but decided to spend a few more years playing soccer in America (while partying hard and having fun with gorgeous women). The whole thing was promotional and it does not invalidate the arguments commonly made by soccer critics, nor does it invalidate this thread. By wanting to spend his whole entire career with Barca, it looks like Messi is going to make the same mistake as Pele and that's what I am trying to argue here.

And FYI, not everyone thinks Pele is the GOAT. Do some research on the Internet and you'll find thousands of threads that discuss this topic. Some say Messi, while others prefer Maradona. Here is what Maradona said about Pele:

"Do you know what? I played in European football for 10 years while Pele played in South America. Yes he won World Cups and everything, but playing in Europe is something else entirely," he said.

"Not that that makes me much better than him or anything like that. When I played, the man-markers in Spanish and Italian football were like hunting dogs. They never left me alone."

You can read the whole thing below:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-2...-place/1406780

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Pele made his Santos debut in 1956, when he was only 15 years old. He remained with the club until 1974. So that's 19 seasons with Santos - pretty much his whole career. After that he retired.

Now his buddy who was the owner of the Cosmos - Steve Ross I believe was his name - must have asked Pele numerous times to come to America. The whole purpose was to try to bring increased awareness of the sport to the country. Pele was way past his prime, but he eventually agreed to do it.

One of the most common arguments soccer critics tend to bring up goes something like this: would Pele have been able to replicate his Brazilian success in Europe? Would he have been able to score numerous goals against bigger and stronger opponents, week after week, month after month and year after year? Yes, Santos did play some exhibition games in Europe throughout the 1960s, but that's different.

And finally, what the heck does playing in NASL have anything to do with this? He was already retired, but decided to spend a few more years playing soccer in America (while partying hard and having fun with gorgeous women). The whole thing was promotional and it does not invalidate the arguments commonly made by soccer critics, nor does it invalidate this thread. By wanting to spend his whole entire career with Barca, it looks like Messi is going to make the same mistake as Pele and that's what I am trying to argue here.

And FYI, not everyone thinks Pele is the GOAT. Do some research on the Internet and you'll find thousands of threads that discuss this topic. Some say Messi, while others prefer Maradona. Here is what Maradona said about Pele:

"Do you know what? I played in European football for 10 years while Pele played in South America. Yes he won World Cups and everything, but playing in Europe is something else entirely," he said.

"Not that that makes me much better than him or anything like that. When I played, the man-markers in Spanish and Italian football were like hunting dogs. They never left me alone."

You can read the whole thing below:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-2...-place/1406780

Of course there are individuals who will question anything. Look at the rankings Al posted on the soccer cards thread. I rest my case.

[58pinson]

All my very humble opinion, and coming from an England supporter who has been tortured often on the international scene, but......

Messi is a wonderful player. Greatest of all time? Not by a long shot. When he leads an Argentinian team to a World Cup championship then maybe he can be put in front of Maradona, and it pains me to even type that last name.

As far as the "Greatest of All Time" idea, that's a lot of fun to kick around but is there really any answer? Reminds me of horseracing - every year at least two or three trainers and/or jockeys claim this or that horse is the "best I've ever ridden" or "the best I've ever trained". It gets old after a while.

Football is a sport with a long and storied history. Even selecting a top one hundred would force someone to leave out too many great players.

Certainly wouldn't mind seeing Messi in a Southampton kit though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pele as a Cosmo.

[steve B]

Such a difficult question, one that probably doesn't have any clear answer.

I'll start off saying that I'm biased in favor of Pele. Even watching an old supposedly worn out Pele play for the Cosmos was something that made me pay attention to Soccer. Until then, it was - to me - something played by Highschool kids and a few of the more athletic hippie types. (I was in High school at the time and enjoyed playing it in gym)

And watching Maradona a bit later was pretty amazing. If I remember it correctly he was the guy who was trapped in the corner by a defender and held the ball on a foot that was over the sideline while turning side to side until he had room to get the ball past the defender. Amazing skill.

To me todays game seems a bit overly formulaic, it's probably a more strategically sound game than the 70's and 80's, but it's a bit dull when the players don't show off that sort of talent - Or won't because it doesn't fit the style of play.

My admittedly less than great understanding is that the European and South American styles of play are a bit different. South American to me has always seemed like a more open game with more man on man coverage, while the European game has seemed more compact with a lot more zone like play. I can't really picture how the skills of each style would translate to the other.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by 58pinson

All my very humble opinion, and coming from an England supporter who has been tortured often on the international scene, but......

Messi is a wonderful player. Greatest of all time? Not by a long shot. When he leads an Argentinian team to a World Cup championship then maybe he can be put in front of Maradona, and it pains me to even type that last name.

As far as the "Greatest of All Time" idea, that's a lot of fun to kick around but is there really any answer? Reminds me of horseracing - every year at least two or three trainers and/or jockeys claim this or that horse is the "best I've ever ridden" or "the best I've ever trained". It gets old after a while.

Football is a sport with a long and storied history. Even selecting a top one hundred would force someone to leave out too many great players.

Certainly wouldn't mind seeing Messi in a Southampton kit though.

My vote would be Jim Thorpe. ...and I'm not just messing with you.


.

[esehombre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Given Pele's virtually unanimous status as the greatest player ever, I question the whole premise of this thread, that significant questions remain about how great he was.

Same here--very odd