Modern Era HOF Ballot: Who do you think should get in?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

You don't get to cherry pick stats. Simmons played 15 games in the minors in 1970. He was on the roster the rest of the time. Not being good enough to play still counts against him. He played 19 seasons. If he had played more those last 3 seasons, his WAR would be even worse, it works in your favor that he played fewer games.

Ted Simmons WAR is 192nd for position players. That is not a strong HOF candidate. WAR clearly undervalues catchers. Johnny Bench leads catchers with 75, right above Lou Whitaker with 74.9. Bench was a 1st ballot Hofer, Whitaker couldn't get 5% and fell off the ballot (and I will agree that Whitaker deserves serious consideration). Bench and Whitaker did not bring the same value to their team.

We have all the offensive numbers, but how do you value defense, in particular for a catcher? He handles more chances than any other player. He catches every pitch that isn't hit. He calls the pitches. He is the defensive quarterback. When you try to compare catchers with WAR, WAR7 and JAWS, that flaw is magnified. In the case of Simmons, he was a slightly below average catcher, so using numbers that don't punish him for his lack of defense and don't reward other catchers for their superior defense, in particular Munson and Freehan for HOF. Or in your comparison with other Hofers. It gives a false impression that he was better than he really was.

Listing counting stats compared to other catchers just confirms that Simmons was a compiler. He played for 8 seasons as a below average offensive players, as well as being below average defensively. During those 8 seasons, he compiled 5 WAR. If that isn't a compiler, then what is?

I'm sorry but that's a bit of a stretch.

There were six years where Simmons was "below average"...as in OPS+ below 100. Those seasons were:

1970 OPS+ 74 (age 20)
1981 OPS+ 87 (first year in AL)
1984 OPS+ 61 (terrible year)
1986 OPS+ 88 (36 year old former catcher with 144 plate appearances)
1987 OPS+ 93 (37 year old former catcher with 200 plate appearances)
1988 OPS+ 71 (38 year old former catcher with 123 plate appearances)

Munson likely would have surpassed Simmons in career WAR had he lived. While he was clearly on the downslope of his career, he likely would have had another 10 WAR over the rest of his career, at a minimum. Unless you give credit for years that he never got to play, however, Simmons is the better HOF candidate.

You also want to paint Simmons as a compiler, while bemoaning the fact that Munson never got the opportunity to compile. That seems a bit odd to me.

Gary Carter's final six seasons were pretty bad. Was he a compiler as well? How about Pudge Rodriguez? His final seven seasons were abysmal. Carlton Fisk's last three years were bad. It isn't just a Ted Simmons thing.

Tom C

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I'm sorry but that's a bit of a stretch.

There were six years where Simmons was "below average"...as in OPS+ below 100. Those seasons were:

1970 OPS+ 74 (age 20)
1981 OPS+ 87 (first year in AL)
1984 OPS+ 61 (terrible year)
1986 OPS+ 88 (36 year old former catcher with 144 plate appearances)
1987 OPS+ 93 (37 year old former catcher with 200 plate appearances)
1988 OPS+ 71 (38 year old former catcher with 123 plate appearances)

Munson likely would have surpassed Simmons in career WAR had he lived. While he was clearly on the downslope of his career, he likely would have had another 10 WAR over the rest of his career, at a minimum. Unless you give credit for years that he never got to play, however, Simmons is the better HOF candidate.

You also want to paint Simmons as a compiler, while bemoaning the fact that Munson never got the opportunity to compile. That seems a bit odd to me.

Gary Carter's final six seasons were pretty bad. Was he a compiler as well? How about Pudge Rodriguez? His final seven seasons were abysmal. Carlton Fisk's last three years were bad. It isn't just a Ted Simmons thing.

Tom C

just ignore him, he can't stand to admit that Simmons was twice the player that Garvey was and will pitch a completely irrational toddler fit at the mere mention of such

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

just ignore him, he can't stand to admit that Simmons was twice the player that Garvey was and will pitch a completely irrational toddler fit at the mere mention of such

Nah.

I disagree with him on a few things but he also makes some good and valid points. The back and forth is fun for me and has remained respectful. No problem here.

Tom C

[Moyni]

I did a video on this topic. Thought I would share it with my friends at Net54.

https://youtu.be/sIWk-TuyVlI

[dgo71]

Pretty happy for Trammell. I think Morris however is one of the worst choices in years.

[earlywynnfan]

Still no Stan Hack, eh?