'Altered' vs 'Authentic' - confused

[scomeau]

Thanks. Does 'A' include altered? Do they differentiate between Altered and Authentic?

[GaryPassamonte]

This was encapsulated about 10 years ago. An erasure at the bottom caused the "altered authentic" determination.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

This was encapsulated about 10 years ago. An erasure at the bottom caused the "altered authentic" determination.

Great example Gary. I do not believe SGC labels like that though. Its just an A.

[Pat R]

From PSA's website.
img858.jpg
Manning A.jpg

[bigfanNY]

I had a long talk with 2 graders who sat down at lunch table with me at national. We only discussed 2 issues min size requirement and altered. What they said about altered was most altered cards were placed in heavy plastic screwdowns and pressure was applied to the card. Hence the term altered stock. SGC has the same term. I have had cards from Goudey's to 80's rookies get this grade.And for a time I like many used large screwdowns to display cards at shows so I accepted them at their word. Hope this helps.
Jonathan

[scomeau]

Thanks, Jonathan.

I think that was exactly my issue. The sad thing is that there was no instruction (at least not in anything I read) that PSA would encapsulate as 'AA' IF THE SUBMISSION HAD A NOTE REQUESTING. Since I did not know that, I must re-submit and repay to get that type of 'grading'.

Ugh. It seems a shame that a suspicious grade will be given even though the impact is almost certainly due to holders. Given today's "need" for grading, it looks like that must be done, and the value appropriately impacted - whatever that is!

Again, thanks.

[scomeau]

Thanks again, Andrew and Gary

[drcy]

I agree that a condition grade of 'Authentic' is ambiguous.

I should add that there are scarce cases where there is so much restoration that there are questions about 'How authentic is it?" I'm not talking about trimming our touching up, but cases where, say, 40 percent of the item has been restored with foreign materials. And, of course, there are alteration of otherwise genuine items that are designed to change the identity and thus are forgeries (rare variations, T206 Magie, etc). Some genuine but badly broken ancient Indian Artifacts, such as stone arrowheads or knives, are rechipped into whole pieces, and many collectors in that area would consider these borderline forgeries-- or at least, not entirely authentic. Genuine ancient American Indian artifacts are commonly 'cleaned up,' so that's a collecting area were looking for restoration is common.

[scomeau]

Drcy,

I have a friend who is a long-time Indian artifact collector/dealer, and he shares your opinion.

It's a shame that such things undermine the fun in our hobbies. Ignorance might have been blissful in the days prior to huge prices and the extortion of grading.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Jonathan, What did the graders say about the minimum size not met label? That one has always baffled me.

Thanks

Lee Behrens

[T205 GB]

A is used as an umbrella grade. It can be on a card that was altered, is in poor condition, is just Authentic(as some card issues were), or some collectors just want a card slabbed and an A used instead of numerical.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

A is used as an umbrella grade. It can be on a card that was altered, is in poor condition, is just Authentic(as some card issues were), or some collectors just want a card slabbed and an A used instead of numerical.

+1

Away from grading, authentic for anything means the item is genuine. For card grades, it means the card is genuine but there is something wrong with it-- alteration, restoration, major damage, ultra poor condition, or if the submitter specifically asked for the grade (perhaps the owner preferred an Auth to a Poor).

Also, there may some really rare and esoteric items that will only get the authentic grade.

In my world of artifact authentication, authenticity and condition grade are two different things.

[scomeau]

Agreed. Authenticity and condition are 2 separate items, but questionable authenticity really undermines its value. Although assigning a numerical grade to an 'altered' card is a contradiction, it's too bad there is not some way to clarify what the issues might be.

I think SGC tries to do that as I have some Old Judge cards graded as 'A' but with 'skinned' or 'trimmed' indicated on the flip. That helps. Even if it were only recorded in the SGC certification library. At least that way, a buyer could get a better picture based on a cert lookup.