enough is enough

[cammb]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Your statement is oversimplistic. It is by no means clear that a player could be fired for failing to stand for the anthem. In fact, I would bet he cannot.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcede.../#3333baa12976
Moot point, though--ain't gonna happen.

You certainly can be fired if you are protesting anything at your work place , on company time , without the owners permission

[KMayUSA6060]

Only government employees are protected from termination of employment by the First Amendment, I believe.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by cammb

You certainly can be fired if you are protesting anything at your work place , on company time , without the owners permission

Maybe you can, but if you have contractual protections such as may be found in collective bargaining agreements, there are often obstacles to such firings. An owner would likely have to claim that the "protest" violated a morals provision in the CBA and convince an arbitrator that certain broad and likely amorphous language governing player conduct precludes gestures (kneeling) during the anthem. Then he would have to show that such conduct is so outrageous that the punishment is not fine or suspension, but termination of the contract. Good luck with that, even at the arbitration level. Never mind what a judge would do with that thereafter if the player appealed. Go for it.

[nolemmings]

BTW, it should be remembered that the great Jackie Robinson, who served in the military during a time of World War, also protested the flag:

In his 1972 autobiography, I Never Had It Made, Jackie Robinson -- who broke baseball’s color line in 1947 -- wrote, "As I write this twenty years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world."

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

BTW, it should be remembered that the great Jackie Robinson, who served in the military during a time of World War, also protested the flag:

In his 1972 autobiography, I Never Had It Made, Jackie Robinson -- who broke baseball’s color line in 1947 -- wrote, "As I write this twenty years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world."

It should also be remembered the actual oppression he suffered through, and that he served in a time where the draft was still active.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

It should also be remembered the actual oppression he suffered through, and that he served in a time where the draft was still active.

So his military service should be discounted because he was drafted instead of enlisted, and he had a right to protest because he could prove, in a manner satisfactory to you and/or others, that he was an actual victim of oppression.
Got it.

[cammb]

[QUOTE=nolemmings;1706298]So his military service should be discounted because he was drafted instead of enlisted, and he had a right to protest because he could prove, in a manner satisfactory to you and/or others, that he was an actual victim of oppression.


I really feel sorry for these poor oppressed football players. Maybe we should set a fund to help them through their oppression

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=cammb;1706309]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

So his military service should be discounted because he was drafted instead of enlisted, and he had a right to protest because he could prove, in a manner satisfactory to you and/or others, that he was an actual victim of oppression.


I really feel sorry for these poor oppressed football players. Maybe we should set a fund to help them through their oppression

You are missing the point entirely.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

So his military service should be discounted because he was drafted instead of enlisted, and he had a right to protest because he could prove, in a manner satisfactory to you and/or others, that he was an actual victim of oppression.
Got it.

Never said his military service should be discounted.

People didn't really have the choice to serve or not to serve back then. When called upon, you served. Additionally, because he was a person of color, he probably served in a lesser position. Do you really think he wanted to serve a country that truly oppressed him? No. But he did, and for that, I thank him dearly.

The second part of your comment was along the lines of what I am saying, which is he did have good reason to protest the country. He had to use different bathrooms, different drinking fountains, stay in different hotels or crappier hotel rooms. He was heckled by all sorts of fans, going through emotional Hell day in and day out. If he was assaulted, he couldn't fight back, because the story would become that he attacked someone else and the white person was in self-defense mode. Compare that to today, when you have these athletes (many of them black) assaulting others and either having the charges dropped, or getting off with a slap on the wrist.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

People didn't really have the choice to serve or not to serve back then. When called upon, you served. Additionally, because he was a person of color, he probably served in a lesser position. Do you really think he wanted to serve a country that truly oppressed him? No. But he did, and for that, I thank him dearly.

While his getting in to OCS wasn't easy, and wasn't for several others at the same time, he was eventually commissioned, and was assigned to the 761st tank battalion.

So not a lesser position, despite the entire military being segregated at the time.

The rest of his military career was a complete mess because of racism though.

Steve B

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Maybe you can, but if you have contractual protections such as may be found in collective bargaining agreements, there are often obstacles to such firings. An owner would likely have to claim that the "protest" violated a morals provision in the CBA and convince an arbitrator that certain broad and likely amorphous language governing player conduct precludes gestures (kneeling) during the anthem. Then he would have to show that such conduct is so outrageous that the punishment is not fine or suspension, but termination of the contract. Good luck with that, even at the arbitration level. Never mind what a judge would do with that thereafter if the player appealed. Go for it.

Yeah, I'd like to be the lawyer on that one there. After an hour reviewing players who weren't fired for abusing their wives in public, beating their kids senseless, punching police officers, participating in sexual assaults of every stripe imaginable who weren't terminated on the morals clause, I'd then get around to the guy who too a knee quietly during the national anthem. I'd live for that.