T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *

Connie Mack was a staunch anti-tobacco guy, who did not want his image portrayed on tobacco cards. **
Of course he can be found on various E-type cards.
. .

Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers at from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system.
Jack Coombs is a perfect example of Connie's recruiting style. Jack was a 4 sport (baseball, basketball, football and track) athlete at Colby College in Maine.
Tom Mack (Connie's brother) scouted Jack during his College days. In his senior year (1905), Jack signed with the A's. His first 4 years, Jack's pitching record
was unimpressive. Then in 1910, Jack's W-L record was an amazing 31-9 with 1.30 ERA. Furthermore, he won 3 games in the World Series defeating the Cubs.

In the Fall of 1910, American Lithographic was designing their 460-only series cards; therefore, why didn't they include Jack Coombs in this series ? Given, the
tremendous year he had. I do not really understand why he is missing in the T206 set.

Incidentally, Coombs won 28 games in 1911, and 21 games in 1912. WOW !....80 games won in 3 consecutive years. **

Is that a record, what ?

TED Z
.

Hey there Ted!,

No Doubt Mr. Coombs had an impressive 3 Year Run!
80 Wins in Just 3 Years Will Nevar Happen AgaiN....

Being a "BiG" Ed Walsh Rooter, I Do Know THaT
Mr. Walsh Had His Own Nice Run of 81 Wins From 1906-08(17,24 & 40)
I'm Not Sure if it's the Record?, Mr. Walsh Certainly Holds Many!

Howevar, As You Know "BiG" Ed Holds the All Time Record fir ERA(1.82),
And Mr. Coombs Bested the Spitballer by 1.32 to 1.59 during their 3 Year Runs.
So, my Hats Off to Mr. Coombs!
~ Very Impressive during his time ~

*And I Just Moved Mr. Coombs to the "Head of the Pack"
Of my "Who Should of Bin Included inta the T206 Set"!!!

As Always Sir... Dankz fir the Education, "TRuLy!"

[tedzan]

Hi Denny

Thanks for the information on "Big Ed". Walsh (as you well know) was amazing from 1907 - 1912.....168 Wins. That's an average of 24 Wins per season !

Hey guy, we here in Pennsylvania have produced a lot of great ballplayers throughout the years. Dare I say the T206 set consists of more Pennsylvanians
than from any other state in the country back then.

Yes, for 3 consecutive seasons Jack Coombs was a tremendous pitcher. But your guy was tremendous for 7 consecutive years.


Thanks again for the memories,

TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

My recollection is, that years ago, you and I came up with 3 print runs on the So. Lgrs.

I've searched for this info in the Net54 archives, but I haven't any luck finding our discussion.

Am I imagining this, or did we arrive at such a timeline in the printing of these 48 cards ?

TED Z

.

Hi Ted,

Heitman thought the 6 Texas Leaguers formed their own group but they have always been grouped with the other 8 non-Hindu SLers in my mind.

Scot

[rats60]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Hey there Ted!,

No Doubt Mr. Coombs had an impressive 3 Year Run!
80 Wins in Just 3 Years Will Nevar Happen AgaiN....

Being a "BiG" Ed Walsh Rooter, I Do Know THaT
Mr. Walsh Had His Own Nice Run of 81 Wins From 1906-08(17,24 & 40)
I'm Not Sure if it's the Record?, Mr. Walsh Certainly Holds Many!

Howevar, As You Know "BiG" Ed Holds the All Time Record fir ERA(1.82),
And Mr. Coombs Bested the Spitballer by 1.32 to 1.59 during their 3 Year Runs.
So, my Hats Off to Mr. Coombs!
~ Very Impressive during his time ~

*And I Just Moved Mr. Coombs to the "Head of the Pack"
Of my "Who Should of Bin Included inta the T206 Set"!!!

As Always Sir... Dankz fir the Education, "TRuLy!"

Cy Young won 97 games from 1891-93. Walter Johnson matched that from 1912-14.

[Sean]

And Grover Cleveland Alexander came close with 94 from 1915-1917.

[Ronnie73]

While playing around with spreadsheet checklists for Polar Bears and Sovereigns, I came across something interesting that may or may not have been brought up in the past. The first part I'm sure everyone is aware of is that all Sovereign 150/350 cards do not exist with Polar Bear backs. The second part which I normally wouldn't think much into it but a magic number 55 comes into play. I combined the Sovereign and Polar Bear lists together. I then removed the Sovereign 150/350 cards. Then I removed the cards that shared Polar Bear and Sovereign backs. What I was left with was a list of Polar Bears that don't have Sovereign 350 & 460 counterparts, and a list of Sovereign 350's that don't have Polar Bear counterparts. Odd thing is that each list has 55 unique cards and the Sovereign's are all the Forest Green Backs. So, am I putting too much thought into this? What's everyone's thoughts that each list has 55 cards? All cards are from the Print Group 2 class except where noted.

Sovereign 350 Forest Green Backs that don't have Polar Bear counterparts.
Arndt, Harry
Bender, Chief (With Trees)
Brown, George (Washington) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Burns, Bill
Butler, John
Byrne, Bobby
Campbell, Billy
Cassidy, Peter
Collins, Eddie
Crawford, Sam (Throwing) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Cree, Birdie
Dahlen, Bill (Brooklyn) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Dineen, Bill
Donovan, Wild Bill (Throwing)
Doolan, Mickey (Fielding)
Downs, Jerry
Dubuc, Jean
Dunn, Jack
Dunn, Joe
Fiene, Lou (Throwing)
Hall, Bob
Hannifan, Jack
Hartsel, Topsy
Howell, Harry (Portrait)
Huggins, Miller (Hands At Mouth)
Huggins, Miller (Portrait)
Jennings, Hughie (Portrait) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Killian, Ed (Portrait)
Knabe, Otto
Lennox, Ed
Malarkey, Bill
Marquard, Rube (Portrait)
McCormick, Moose
McGinley, Jim
McIntyre, Matty
Mitchell, Fred
Mitchell, Mike
Moran, Herbie
Mowrey, Mike
Myers, Chief (Fielding)
Oberlin, Frank
O'Hara, Bill (New York)
Paskert, Dode
Phelan, Jimmy
Poland, Phil
Rhoades, Bob (Hands At Chest)
Rossman, Claude
Schmidt, Boss (Portrait)
Stephens, Jim
Street, Gabby (Portrait)
Summers, Ed
Sweeney, Bill
Thomas, Ira
Wilson, Owen
Zimmerman, Heinie

Polar Bear Backs that don't have Sovereign 350 or 460 counterparts.
Adkins, Doc
Arellanes, Frank
Barbeau, Jap
Barger, Cy
Bliss, Jack
Brashear, Roy
Bresnahan, Roger (Batting)
Burchell, Fred
Clark, Josh
Clymer, Bill
Collins, Jimmy
Davidson, Paul
Delehanty, Frank
Demmitt, Ray (St. Louis Amer.)
Dessau, Rube
Dorner, Gus
Downey, Tom (Fielding)
Engle, Clyde
Evans, Steve
Freeman, Jerry
Ganzel, John
Graham, Bill
Gray, Dolly
Groom, Bob
Hayden, Jack
Jones, Davy
Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching) (PRINT GROUP 3)
LaPorte, Frank
Lattimore, Bill
Lavender, Jimmy (It was pointed out that this card doesn't belong on the list. So this list only has 54 cards.)
Lord, Harry
Maddox, Nick
Maloney, Billy
Mattern, Al
McLean, Larry
Milan, Clyde
Miller, Dots
Mullen, George
Murray, Red (Batting)
Nattress, Billy
O'Hara, Bill (St. Louis)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical) (PRINT GROUP 3)
Phillippe, Deacon
Puttman, Ambrose
Rhodes, Charlie
Ritter, Lou
Rudolph, Dick
Schirm, George
Schlafly, Larry
Schreck, Ossee
Shannon, Spike
Sharpe, Bud
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston) (PRINT GROUP 3)
Snodgrass, Fred (Batting)
Willett, Ed

[Rich Falvo]

Ron...one change for you - Lavender has both Polar Bear and Sovereign 350.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

Interesting stuff.

I did a similar analysis with POLAR BEAR vs 1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects in 2008.
Refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...1654&highlight

Shown here are the 48- Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. The 1910 COUPON cards were issued circa..Spring/Summer 1910.
My theory.....is this group of 48 subjects were printed from an early 350-only sheet of T206 cards. From this group, 39 subjects are POLAR
BEAR No-Prints.
The nine printed POLAR BEAR cards from this group are listed below.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects





Confirmed POLAR BEAR Subjects from this COUPON group

Engle
LaPorte
Willett

and the Six Super-Prints....which of course went on to be 350/460 series subjects and have PB backs

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

Ron...one change for you - Lavender has both Polar Bear and Sovereign 350.

Hey Rich, your right. So much for my 55/55 list. I guess that's what happens when I try to do T206 research 2:30 in the morning.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hey Rich, your right. So much for my 55/55 list. I guess that's what happens when I try to do T206 research 2:30 in the morning.

I hate destroying the symmetry. We need to find one on the other side to make it 54/54.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






There are a variety of "card games" you can play with the T206 Southern Leaguer's combined with other tobacco
cards having the same image. For instance, shown here is my whimsical run of Greminger's cards......


..........


And, why not include a brown OLD MILL (with Factory #649 overprint) card of Greminger.......

OK, I need Greminger's 1910 COUPON card to fill-out this run. If anyone reading this has a T213-1 Greminger for sale, email me.... tedzan11@comcast.net



Another challenge is trying for a "Quadruplicate" subset that includes a 1910 COUPON card of your favorite SL guy from 20 subjects in the Southern Association
of the T213-1 set.






Ted Breitenstein is my favorite Southern Leaguer in the T206 set. Here's my Quadruplicate sub-set of Ted.






OK guys, show us your whimsical (or whatever) sub-set(s) of Southern League cards.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





During the Summer of 1909, American Litho (ALC) printed SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 cards of many Major Leaguers and shipped them to Factory #30 in NYC.
Simultaneously, ALC started printing their first group (34 subjects) of Southern Leaguers. These cards were printed with brown HINDU backs and were shipped to the
Factory (#649) producing HINDU cigarettes (also SWEET CAPORAL cigarettes).
Furthermore, ALC selected 34 - Major League subjects from the batches of the aforementioned SWEET CAPORAL 150 cards and modified the backs by stamping them
with the "Factory #649" overprint in order to ship them to this new factory.

Circa..Fall of 1909, ALC switched to printing up the OLD MILL backs on the Southern League cards. During this entire process, the usual printer's practice of test runs
between actual press runs resulted in these brown inked OLD MILL (scrap) cards [with the red ink Factory #649 overprint (inverted)]. I don't think any of them found
their way into cigarette packs. Anyhow, to date 13 of them have been confirmed. They are........

Bernhard
Foster
Greminger
Helm
Hooker
Jordan
Kiernan
Mullaney
Paige
Reagan
Revelle
Sid Smith
Thornton






TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

These Southern League brown OLD MILL cards are seldom seen....but if you have one, why not show it to us.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, I need your help. In reviewing post #30 I noticed that you mentioned the close correlation between the Red Cross type-1 and the Pirate sets. The Red Cross set features a Gabby Street card. I thought that that was a Street Catching pose. But the Pirate set features a Street portrait.

Does that mean that the Red Cross Street card is also the portrait version?

[tedzan]

Sean

The T215-1 set includes both Gabby Street cards....Portrait and Catching.





TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sean

The T215-1 set includes both Gabby Street cards....Portrait and Catching.





TED Z
.

Ted,

I don't have back scans but here are front scans of a Street Catching and Portrait.

Street (Catching) T215-1.jpgStreet (Port) T215-1.jpg

[tedzan]

Hi Pat

Thanks much for posting these two Street cards.

It's not often that these T215-1 cards are seen.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[Cooper1927]

Excellent post! You may want to put the "index" at the start of the thread.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted,

I don't have back scans but here are front scans of a Street Catching and Portrait.

Attachment 280659Attachment 280660

Patrick, is that your Street catching? I only know of one, and it belongs to Richard Masson, so this would be a second example.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Sean

Patrick, is that your Street catching? I only know of one, and it belongs to Richard Masson, so this would be a second example.

Sean, they are not my cards just scans I had.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



..^............... brown LENOX examples ...............^


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


350/460 series....Group B




350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


T80 cards




So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.


The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


Let's see your brown LENOX cards. If you have these very rare "gems", why not show them. So, please post them here.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Okay Ted, here's mine:

scan0029.jpg scan0030.jpg

[tedzan]

Hey Sean

Thanks for posting your brown LENOX.


Will I see you in Chicago next week ?


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Not this year Ted. I was hoping to go, but it didn't work out. Maybe next year, definitely in 2019.

[tedzan]

Listed here (in brown color) are the T206 subjects that have been confirmed with Brown LENOX backs. They are interleaved with subjects (in
black color) that are possible Brown LENOX candidates.

Let's continue this train rolling down the tracks, perhaps we will discover another new Brown LENOX card (or even more). There are 11 more
possible subjects.

Hey guys, take a good close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection


CONFIRMED......26 Brown LENOX subjects. Additional 11 possible Candidates that eventually may be confirmed with Brown LENOX.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)

Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)


TED Z
.

[Beansballcardblog]

I want to thank Ted for this thread. I've been reading it over the last few evenings and will certainly be referencing it in the future.

The amount of information in this thread and Scot's book just blow my mind. I'm an analytical guy. My occupation is a retail analyst. All of this information is an overload for me. Hopefully, some of it will eventually sink in.

[Beansballcardblog]

As I mentioned before, there is so much info that I can't seem to get a good, solid grip on it all. One question I had is, on the SLers, are there factory variations as well as the three (or two) brand variations?

Any info is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing all of this information that you've put together!

-kin

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350).
And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.


Checklist of the 48 subjects in the SL series is broken down with respect to the cards with HINDU vs. the no HINDU cards........

34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat


14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)


Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards.
And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hi Kin

I appreciate your kind compliments.


The answer to your question is......

OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.

HINDU is Factory #649.


Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
.

[Beansballcardblog]

Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.

-kin

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Kin

I appreciate your kind compliments.


The answer to your question is......

OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.

HINDU is Factory #649.


Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Kin,

Thanks for the nice words.

As Ted says there are just the three brand/factory combos for southern leaguers.

There is a footnote, however. A handful of southern leaguer cards having the Old Mill Southern back were printed in brown ink. These cards are all hand-cut i.e. scrap. Moreover, a couple of these Brown Old Mill Southerns (Greminger comes to mind) weirdly have a red Factory 649 overstrike stamp on them. If you search the Net54 archives you will find an image of the "freak" Greminger Brown Old Mill Southern Factory 649 Overstrike card somewhere.

Scot

Here's a link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147870

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs.
These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to
Factory #42 (Durham, NC).





It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked
David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list......

28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards

Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)

Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series).


Group B (350/460 series)




TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.

Patrick

[tedzan]

Hi Pat

You may be right.

But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me.

So, I'll call him about this.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:


scan0009.jpg

scan0010.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:


Attachment 282499

Attachment 282500

Hi Sean

Here's my understanding of the timeline regarding Bresnahan.

In early 1916, Bresnahan purchased the Toledo Mud Hens (American Association). He played for Toledo until 1918.

Therefore, I am not surprised that he is identified with Toledo on a T213-2 card (they were printed 1914 - 1916).
And, of course captioned with Toledo on a T213-3 card (which were printed as late as 1919).

Does this answer help ?


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Yes, that explains it. Bresnahan appears on a T213 Type-2 with Chicago in 1914. He then appears on the Victory, again with Chicago, printed in 1915.

The Type-2 with Bresnahan on Toledo is then printed, apparently in 1916, followed by the Type-3, which was printed in 1919.

I didn't realize that the Type-2s were printed as late as 1916. Thanks again Ted.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.


Patrick

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wvu_class_of_2001

Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.

-kin

Hi Kin K.

No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.

The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.

My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.

Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?


TED Z
.

[Beansballcardblog]

Ted,

The sample size of cards that I've been able to verify and analyze is very small. Sometimes I can't see the back scans to verify that aspect. In the Huggins & Scott auction that ended this week, there was a complete set but only the fronts were pictured.

What I've found so far is Mecca 30 backs being the most plentiful. The other three brand/factory combinations have similar numbers.

I'm not confident this will hold up, as I've been looking into this for less than two years.

Thanks again for your great, informative thread!

-kin

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Kin K.

No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.

The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.

My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.

Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?

This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts
which you'll find very interesting and informative.

The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.




.... . . . . . .



To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.

150/350 Series................83 subjects

.

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)

Criger
Dahlen (Boston)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)

Tom Jones (St Louis)
Jordan (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Leach (portrait)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magee (portrait)
Marquard (hands at side)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Mullin (throwing)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)

Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis)
Shipke
Spade
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall (portrait)
L Tannehill (Washington)
Tinker (portrait)
Turner
Wagner (bat on left)
Walsh
Weimer

Wilhelm (arms at chest)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)

350-only Series................102 subjects

.

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Collins (A's)

Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper

Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore

Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson

Wright
Zimmerman

Six Super-Prints

.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

350/460 series................56 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



.


460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE)

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel

Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated.

Thanx


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Back to the players themselves.

Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!

I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.

Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.

[tedzan]

Hi Jeff

1st....the grand total of 285 confirmed EPDG subjects is correct......

Cards ..... Series

..83 ........ 150/350
102 ........ 350-only
...6 ......... Super-Prints
..57 ........ 350/460 [if Kleinow (Boston) exists with EPDG)]
..37 ........ 460-only

2nd....I left out Howell in the 460-only series list. Just a hasty typing mistake. This has been corrected.

3rd....There is a question regarding Kleinow (Boston). I have heard this combo exists; however, others say it is a No-Print. What say you ?

4th....I really like your array of EPDG cards, thanks for posting it.

Pastorius, Shaw, and Willett are on my confirmed list (and also on t206 resource's list).

My experience with collecting the Elite 11 regarding both their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs varies all over the place.

But, Lundgren (Cubs) is definitely a "toughie" with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

Thanks again.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Hey Jeff

1....My 460-only list is correct with 37 subjects. I inadvertently omitted Howell. He is included in this list.

2....Steinfeldt (portrait) in the 350/460 series list was a typo error, which I have removed. It should have been Steinfeldt (bat). This has been corrected.

Therefore, 57 subjects are correct if you accept Kleinow (Boston) as valid. I have some doubts that this subject exists with an EPDG back.

So, I am asking you again....if you know that this front/back combo exists ? ?


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.

My theory regarding the timeline when the 350/460 subjects were printed with EPDG backs coincides with the Sovereign "apple green" print run (shown here is my simulated
Sovereign sheet)....circa Spring - Summer 1910.

I base this on the following evidence......

Joe Doyle retires from Major League BB June 25, 1910

Simon Nicholls retires from Major League BB April 19, 1910

Red Kleinow traded to Boston May 26, 1910

Frank Smith traded to Boston Aug 11, 1910 [F. Smith(Chicago & Boston) is an EPDG No-Print]

I have removed Red Kleinow (Boston) from my list.

Therefore, the grand total (to date) of EPDG = 284 subjects.












TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


Continuing from Post # 181 ......

In anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1911, American Lithographic modified their SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 cards
(initial press run) by stamping them with Factory #42 overprints. This was done since the SWEET CAP cigarettes production was being transferred to the Durham, NC plant
of Liggett & Myers.

Factory #42 Durham, NC




Anyhow, after ATC's divesture was resolved by the Federal Courts (circa..Summer 1911), and the "smoke had finally cleared", ATC had retained SWEET CAPORAL production.
Therefore, all this "overprinting" of 109 -T206 subjects was really unnecessary. Listed below are the 109 subjects that were overprinted.

Check-out the Federal Court's decree break-down (circa 1911)......

American Tobacco Company divestiture

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima....only 15 Turkish blends
and the cheap straight domestic brands.


P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands


American Tobacco retained 37 % of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall....its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street
in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.


R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 % of the plug trade.



SWEET CAP 350-460, Factory #42 overprint......109 subjects

350/460 series................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)

Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

460-only Series................46 subjects

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell

Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


. .


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Double post.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


We have been on vacation visiting our Daughter and Grandson in Maine. I just noticed Turner's thread.... Georgia Find: 878 T205's and T206's.
Thanks, Turner for posting this thread and all those great images.

This is a significant find. It's the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection of T206's that include the rare T206's that we refer to as the Elite 11 cards.

Approx. 9 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

Very recently, another original collection of T206's (all PIEDMONT's) was discovered in the Atlanta area. And, this collection included 7 of the Elite 11 cards.

I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info.

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs (containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards) to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards have been
found in T206 collections originating in Georgia. The best example being Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection. It is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. This set
also includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell lived in Winder, Georgia (not far from Atlanta), and he collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.


Elite 11....plus Lundgren





Although Lundgren (Cubs) was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL....this card is very similar to the ELITE 11
with respect to the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.

Note The Schulte card has not yet been found with an EPDG back.


Hey guys,
I'm open to hearing of any other regions in the country where these Elite 11 cards have been discovered. Please chime in with your information.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

PSA has a special section in their pop reports for no prints that include the SC350-460/30's. I sent David an email several months ago about three that were missing from the list
which are Conroy (With Bat), Lake (No Ball) and Leach (Bending Over) but I never heard back from him. The next time you speak to him can you ask him to have them update this
list for accuracy to include these three and the Lajoie that he has.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/?by...f=0#NoPrintPop


img340 - Copy.jpg
Conroy (bat) Group.jpgConroy (bat) Back Group.jpg
Lake (no ball) Group_.jpgLake (no ball) Back Group_.jpg
Leach [1].jpgLeach Back [1].jpg

[Ronnie73]

Here is a front/back scan of the Lajoie Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print". I personally own this card along with the other 27 "No Print" cards. This 28 card "No Print" set follows Ted's "Group B" list exactly!!!