T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

Beansballcardblog · #1 07-31-2017, 07:28 PM

As I mentioned before, there is so much info that I can't seem to get a good, solid grip on it all. One question I had is, on the SLers, are there factory variations as well as the three (or two) brand variations?

Any info is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing all of this information that you've put together!

-kin

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350).
And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.

Checklist of the 48 subjects in the SL series is broken down with respect to the cards with HINDU vs. the no HINDU cards........

34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat

14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)

Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards.
And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #2 07-31-2017, 07:55 PM

Hi Kin

I appreciate your kind compliments.

The answer to your question is......

OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.

HINDU is Factory #649.

Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net

TED Z
.

Beansballcardblog · #3 07-31-2017, 07:59 PM

Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.

-kin

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Kin

I appreciate your kind compliments.

The answer to your question is......

OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.

HINDU is Factory #649.

Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net

TED Z
.

tedzan · #4 08-05-2017, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvu_class_of_2001

Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.

-kin

Hi Kin K.

No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.

The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.

My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.

Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?

TED Z
.

Beansballcardblog · #5 08-06-2017, 01:01 PM

Ted,

The sample size of cards that I've been able to verify and analyze is very small. Sometimes I can't see the back scans to verify that aspect. In the Huggins & Scott auction that ended this week, there was a complete set but only the fronts were pictured.

What I've found so far is Mecca 30 backs being the most plentiful. The other three brand/factory combinations have similar numbers.

I'm not confident this will hold up, as I've been looking into this for less than two years.

Thanks again for your great, informative thread!

-kin

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Kin K.

No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.

The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.

My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.

Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?

TED Z
.

tedzan · #6 08-09-2017, 08:21 PM

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?

This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts
which you'll find very interesting and informative.

The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Mart�nez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.

....

. .

To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.

150/350 Series................83 subjects

.

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)

Criger
Dahlen (Boston)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)

Tom Jones (St Louis)
Jordan (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Leach (portrait)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magee (portrait)
Marquard (hands at side)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Mullin (throwing)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)

Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis)
Shipke
Spade
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall (portrait)
L Tannehill (Washington)
Tinker (portrait)
Turner
Wagner (bat on left)
Walsh
Weimer

Wilhelm (arms at chest)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)

350-only Series................102 subjects

.

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Collins (A's)

Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper

Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore

Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson

Wright
Zimmerman

Six Super-Prints

.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

350/460 series................56 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)

.

460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE)

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel

Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat

This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated.

Thanx

TED Z
.

Thromdog · #7 08-10-2017, 11:52 AM

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Back to the players themselves.

Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!

I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.

Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.

greco827 · #8 10-10-2017, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Mart�nez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.

TED Z
.

Ted,

I did a bit of research, and am fairly confident that Factory 17 was in Richmond, VA, on "Tobacco Row". In an article written Sep 12, 1908, in Tobacco Leaf, Volume 45, Page 32, it mentions this:

"The Federal Cigar Co's plant, which recently closed down several weeks ago, has resumed work. This plant was formerly known as the Whitlock branch of the American Cigar Co. Here Beaux Arts, a little cigar, are made as well as El Principe cigarettes and other brands."

El Principe De Gales is also mentioned by name in full, a bit earlier in the article.

I have not yet found anything which specifically says that the P. Whitlock Branch of ATC is Factory 17, just that the branch was in Richmond and produced EDPG.

sreader3 · #9 07-31-2017, 08:16 PM

Hi Kin,

Thanks for the nice words.

As Ted says there are just the three brand/factory combos for southern leaguers.

There is a footnote, however. A handful of southern leaguer cards having the Old Mill Southern back were printed in brown ink. These cards are all hand-cut i.e. scrap. Moreover, a couple of these Brown Old Mill Southerns (Greminger comes to mind) weirdly have a red Factory 649 overstrike stamp on them. If you search the Net54 archives you will find an image of the "freak" Greminger Brown Old Mill Southern Factory 649 Overstrike card somewhere.

Scot

Here's a link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147870

tedzan · #10 08-02-2017, 08:22 PM

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

350/460 series subjects

In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs.
These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to
Factory #42 (Durham, NC).

It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked
David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list......

28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards

Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)

Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series).

Group B (350/460 series)

TED Z
.

Pat R · #11 08-02-2017, 08:34 PM

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.

Patrick

tedzan · #12 08-02-2017, 08:42 PM

Hi Pat

You may be right.

But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me.

So, I'll call him about this.

TED Z
.

Sean · #13 08-02-2017, 09:37 PM

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:

scan0009.jpg

scan0010.jpg

tedzan · #14 08-03-2017, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.

Patrick

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.

TED Z
.

Pat R · #15 08-26-2017, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.

TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

PSA has a special section in their pop reports for no prints that include the SC350-460/30's. I sent David an email several months ago about three that were missing from the list
which are Conroy (With Bat), Lake (No Ball) and Leach (Bending Over) but I never heard back from him. The next time you speak to him can you ask him to have them update this
list for accuracy to include these three and the Lajoie that he has.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/?by...f=0#NoPrintPop

img340 - Copy.jpg
Conroy (bat) Group.jpg Conroy (bat) Back Group.jpg
Lake (no ball) Group_.jpg Lake (no ball) Back Group_.jpg
Leach [1].jpg Leach Back [1].jpg

Charger74 · #16 11-21-2017, 10:37 PM

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

tedzan · #17 11-22-2017, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charger74

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi

The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've
designated as Group A and Group B)......

Group A

.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group B

All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead,
they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911.

Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards.

Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards.

This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet......

.

Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #18 11-24-2017, 05:10 PM

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Back in 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book "the Monster", red HINDU cards very virtually unknown. The red HINDU back is not mentioned in "The Monster".
My understanding is that only a half a dozen of these very rare cards were known back in the 1970's, and T206 collectors did not really know what to make of them.

Since then, red HINDU cards have "trickled out of the woodwork". In recent years, a find of 13 red HINDU cards occurred in Texas. Ten of these 13 cards are subjects in the
460-only series Exclusive 12 group. The red HINDU's in the 350/460 series are considerably more difficult to find than the Exclusive 12 guys with red HINDU.

For you rare back collectors here are factors (rules) to keep in mind when you are chasing after certain T206 front/back combos......

In the 350/460 series......the red HINDU cards are "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards (printed circa..late 1910).

Furthermore, T206's with these backs are mutually-exclusive with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (printed early 1911).

This hypothesis was first presented on this forum in April 2010 in this fascinating thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122474&page=2

This mutually-exclusive factor is the result of American Lithographic dividing the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (at the end of their T206 production.
Circa..late 1910 > early 1911. I have designated these 2 print groups as Group A and Group B. The red HINDU's and BROAD LEAF 460 backs were printed on these subjects
in Group A.

Group A
.

Checklist�...total = 44

To date, 32 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the 350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. I expect all three will eventually be found.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)

460-only series......Exclusive 12

These 12 confirmed subjects are the only red HINDU cards in the 460-only series. Furthermore, these 12
are definitely more available with the red HINDU back than the above listed subjects in the 350/460 series.
.

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat

Red HINDU is one of my favorite T206 backs. Currently, I have 14 of them. Here's a sampling of HINDU's in my collection.

.

My first red HINDU (acquired in the 1980's)

.

Hey guys...... how's about posting some of your red HINDU cards here....let's see how many different cards we can come up with ?

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

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