T206 Wagner Given Away for Free...to fill a hole of course.

[trdcrdkid]

No, I don't think Burdick is referring to the T206 Wagner when he says "Pontifical Standard" here. At first glance, the wording of that sentence does seem to suggest that the "Pontifical Standard" is included in the "wants in the #521 set", but it could also be referring to two separate elements of the four cards that Wagner had sent to Burdick -- one or more cards from #521 (T206), and also a Pontifical Standard card from another set.

That interpretation is made more likely by the fact that "Pontifical Standard" had a specific meaning -- in the late 1800s, it referred to the flag of the Pontifical States, or what we today know as the Vatican. There were numerous tobacco card sets of national flags in the 1880s, several of which included the Pontifical States flag, and I assume that Burdick is referring to one of these. I haven't been able to find one that's explicitly labeled "Pontifical Standard", but the N195 Kimball National Flags set includes a card labeled "Pontifical States" -- #9 at the following link:

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N195/go.html

That flag also appeared on a card (which I have) in N126 Duke Rulers, Flags, Arms of All Nations set, though there it's labeled "Flag of Papal States" (#35 at this link

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N126/go.html

It wouldn't make sense for Burdick to refer to the T206 Wagner as the "Pontifical Standard", even if the card was as well-known in 1939 as it later became. "Pontifical" means "having to do with the Pope".

Also, as I pointed out in a post last week, Burdick thanked John D. Wagner in the October 1, 1948 for donating a T206 Wagner to the collection that Burdick was giving to the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240887

If that 1939 letter referred to the T206 Wagner, it would imply that Burdick had a Wagner but then traded or sold it before 1948. But I don't see any evidence of that in Burdick's voluminous writings from that period, though there are some mentions of how rare the Wagner was, including in the October 1, 1948 article linked to above.

[Leon]

I still think he possibly is talking about a T206. If not then why did he say he had only seen one other? Is he talking about one other flag card, I doubt it? But your last point is salient too.....but there is also a chance Burdick did in fact help another collector out and give away the one that had been given to him.

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

No, I don't think Burdick is referring to the T206 Wagner when he says "Pontifical Standard" here. At first glance, the wording of that sentence does seem to suggest that the "Pontifical Standard" is included in the "wants in the #521 set", but it could also be referring to two separate elements of the four cards that Wagner had sent to Burdick -- one or more cards from #521 (T206), and also a Pontifical Standard card from another set.

That interpretation is made more likely by the fact that "Pontifical Standard" had a specific meaning -- in the late 1800s, it referred to the flag of the Pontifical States, or what we today know as the Vatican. There were numerous tobacco card sets of national flags in the 1880s, several of which included the Pontifical States flag, and I assume that Burdick is referring to one of these. I haven't been able to find one that's explicitly labeled "Pontifical Standard", but the N195 Kimball National Flags set includes a card labeled "Pontifical States" -- #9 at the following link:

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N195/go.html

That flag also appeared on a card (which I have) in N126 Duke Rulers, Flags, Arms of All Nations set, though there it's labeled "Flag of Papal States" (#35 at this link

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N126/go.html

It wouldn't make sense for Burdick to refer to the T206 Wagner as the "Pontifical Standard", even if the card was as well-known in 1939 as it later became. "Pontifical" means "having to do with the Pope".

Also, as I pointed out in a post last week, Burdick thanked John D. Wagner in the October 1, 1948 for donating a T206 Wagner to the collection that Burdick was giving to the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240887

If that 1939 letter referred to the T206 Wagner, it would imply that Burdick had a Wagner but then traded or sold it before 1948. But I don't see any evidence of that in Burdick's voluminous writings from that period, though there are some mentions of how rare the Wagner was, including in the October 1, 1948 article linked to above.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Leon

I still think he possibly is talking about a T206. If not then why did he say he had only seen one other? Is he talking about one other flag card, I doubt it? But your last point is salient too.....

I don't see why he couldn't be talking about some obscure set of flag cards that included one of the Pontifical Standard. Not necessarily the N195s that I mentioned, but something more obscure. I'll have to look at the Forbes and Mitchell book on American tobacco cards when I get home to see if there's anything that might fit the bill. I agree that Burdick's language is ambiguous, but in context I don't think the Pontifical Standards card he mentions is a T206.

[bn2cardz]

I, too, read it that he was sent 4 random cards and at least one was a t206 and one was a card he referred to as "Pontifical Standard" but this isn't the t206 card. Look at the letter and he is straight forward and doesn't allude to things. Also he only capitalized the proper names in the letter. If he was alluding to a certain player in the "t206" set I believe he would have used lower case for the phrase.

[T206Collector]

Keep in mind that John D. Wagner specialized in baseball cards. See collector No. 12 on Burdick's list, attached ("Specializing in Baseball Subjects"). He is also listed as a "General Collector," but I think the fact that Wagner specialized in baseball cards is additional evidence that what Burdick was writing about was referring to the T206 Wagner.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Keep in mind that John D. Wagner specialized in baseball cards. See collector No. 12 on Burdick's list, attached ("Specializing in Baseball Subjects"). He is also listed as a "General Collector," but I think the fact that Wagner specialized in baseball cards is additional evidence that what Burdick was writing about was referring to the T206 Wagner.

It's true that Wagner specialized in baseball cards, but that's not all he collected, not by a long shot. See his bio in the Card Collectors' Hall of Fame that I posted recently:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240459

Especially this part:



The fact that Wagner was especially interested in military cards makes it unsurprising that he would have had a scarce card of the "Pontifical Standard", or a military flag of the Papal/Pontifical States. And again, it wouldn't make any sense for Burdick to refer to a T206 Wagner by that name, which refers to a specific kind of flag.

[T206Collector]

Neat clipping - reminds me of Leon replacing the collection he sold....

[nsaddict]

I'm certain it's not Honus. The content of the letter tells of a collector with knowledge of various card issues. Just a coincidence to have the same last name and mention of #521 in my opinion. This is what I believe is in reference to.



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