Quality Autographs & Memorabilia (Kevin Keating)

[jimjim]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Just a guess, but I would imagine a deal in which you were forced to give up your business would involve some kind of equity deal. In other words, they were probably offered salary plus stock in Collectors Universe which would vest over a period (probably 4 years, gradual vesting - some after year 1, some more after year 2, etc).

The bigger question is that Keating had REALLY high prices...if he's taken all that stuff out of the market does the perceived value of some of the more rare signatures go down (Jim S and Rich S tend to offer/sell at more realistic prices) or will those rare signatures now be harder to find if the Keating inventory is no longer available?

Great point. A lot of the stuff was priced super high, and he would not come down on any of it. Even the not rare stuff. Never made sense to me how you can run a business that way, when other people and auction houses are selling things for half the price you're charging.

[JimStinson]

Richard what if the offer was .........

[RichardSimon]

ROFL,, but not enough

[thetruthisoutthere]

I have only submitted a few autographs to PSA for authentication, and I have always been a defender of the TPA's, but I have to admit that since Steve Grad left PSA, I won't be submitting anything to them. I have seen too many glaring mistakes by the present staff.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jimjim

Great point. A lot of the stuff was priced super high, and he would not come down on any of it. Even the not rare stuff. Never made sense to me how you can run a business that way, when other people and auction houses are selling things for half the price you're charging.

+1

His prices were absurd.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jimjim

Great point. A lot of the stuff was priced super high, and he would not come down on any of it. Even the not rare stuff. Never made sense to me how you can run a business that way, when other people and auction houses are selling things for half the price you're charging.

We've been through all this many times before, but as he explained it to me, Kevin's approach to pricing autographs relied to a great extent on the answer to the question: "how much is it going to cost me to replace this in my inventory?" As for the idea that he was higher than other dealers, Kevin has always been convinced that other dealers used his extensive and highly visible (every week in SCD) lists to price their autographs, making sure they were below his. And having set up at shows with him for 15 years, the idea that he would not negotiate is just a complete fabrication, totally untrue. Finally, I'll tell you what he would say to me when I'd relay to him some grumbling I had heard about how high his prices were. "Oh yeah, why are they wasting their time whining about me when they could be buying up all the great cheap autographs out there, why would they even care what I charge for mine?" The answer is obvious, and so is the fact that he was probably the biggest volume dealer of vintage sports autographs in the country for decades and is now its top authenticator.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jimjim

Great point. A lot of the stuff was priced super high, and he would not come down on any of it. Even the not rare stuff. Never made sense to me how you can run a business that way, when other people and auction houses are selling things for half the price you're charging.

We've been through all this many times before, but as he explained it to me, Kevin's approach to pricing autographs relied to a great extent on the answer to the question: "how much is it going to cost me to replace this in my inventory?" As for the idea that he was higher than other dealers, Kevin has always been convinced that other dealers used his extensive and highly visible (every week in SCD) lists to price their autographs, making sure they were below his. And having set up at shows with him for 15 years, the idea that he would not negotiate is just a complete fabrication, totally untrue. Finally, I'll tell you what he would say to me when I'd relay to him some grumbling I had heard about how high his prices were. "Oh yeah, why are they wasting their time whining about me when they could be buying up all the great cheap autographs out there, why would they even care what I charge for mine?" The answer is obvious, and so is the fact that he was probably the biggest volume dealer of vintage sports autographs in the country for decades and is now its top authenticator.

[Klrdds]

I dealt with Kevin for 20 years and was one of his first customers and I never paid the listed price for an item . He and I always came to a price we both were happy with . But as with most dealers the more I bought especially in price or quantity or in most cases both the better the prices.
In fact when he published his Negro League Autograph Guide book I bought all of the examplars he used in the book that he offered for sale , which amounted to a few dozen signatures, and he set it up on a 3 month payment plan for me.
We saw each other at the National whenever it was in Atlanta and I got great prices then also from him when he could have sold the items for more money. I always found him easy to deal with and fair.

[cfhofer]

I found Rich and Kevin to be very reasonable and willing to negotiate. I have to imagine the driving force for them getting out was their lack of fresh vintage inventory. More and more collectors are choosing to either consign their quality pieces to auction or sell direct to another collector (thanks to networking forums like this). If you need to bid against your customers for new inventory it is probably time to hang it up.

[RichardSimon]

Getting fresh material is the hardest thing for a dealer now.
Kevin bought from me very regularly. And he had the quickest checks of any of my customers.
A few of my customers expressed frustration when I told them an item was sold and then they would see it on Kevin's price list.
Rich and Bill bought from me occasionally also.
I have always considered them to be in the honest dealers end of the business. If people had trouble with their prices, then just don't buy the piece was always the other option.

[alifaxwa2]

If you had the patience you could have waited for Kevin's annual 30% off sale. That made my single purchase from him much more reasonable.

Regarding customers frequent requests for Psadna or JSA, it's about ensuring resale value. I may be confidant that it is real when I buy from these guys, but if I have to sell two months or 10 years down the line, it's not gonna mean squat that I say I bought it from these dealers, it will mean a lot more if it has that PSA or JSA sticker on it. Whether we like it or not.

[theshleps]

Jeffrey that is true BUT I wouldn't involve a TPA until that time. For instance I have some valuable GAI slabbed tobacco cards that were slabbed when they had a good reputation. Now they do not. Things change and which company is viewed favorably may not be in x number of years

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by alifaxwa2

Regarding customers frequent requests for Psadna or JSA, it's about ensuring resale value. I may be confidant that it is real when I buy from these guys, but if I have to sell two months or 10 years down the line, it's not gonna mean squat that I say I bought it from these dealers, it will mean a lot more if it has that PSA or JSA sticker on it. Whether we like it or not.

The whole argument, about our collections future resale value and that the things left to our family, that having certs is financially better has been repeated over and over. IMO, it is not only illogical, but is risky. Suppose the TPA you used has a scandal. All your money is wasted, just like what happened with GAI, like Michael(theshleps) posted.

For anyone here with a reasonable sized collection, the easiest way for your family to sell it after you are gone is to ship it to one of the auction houses for them to sell in the way that maximizes your family's profit. Once the AH gets the items, they will have the items certed. They will use the TPA that is the most prominent at that time and most likely to provide a good return on investment. Super quick and super easy. Write a few instructions, include phone numbers of a couple of auction houses, and give them to your family on how to liquidate the items. Simple.

Slabbing now only helps your family if you expect them to sell the stuff one by one on ebay. Personally, I would not want to have my spouse or child have to go through all the hassle of selling on ebay, including scanning, posting, putting up a description, dealing with deadbeat purchasers, charge backs, items lost in the mail, etc etc. Auction houses have none of this nonsense.

The additional benefit is you save those slabbing fees which you can use to increase your collection. This will be worth far more money to you and your family in the future. Consider this scenario...

1) You buy 2 Mike Trout signed rookies for $200 (in 2011), spend $100 for certs. 3yrs later they are now worth $500ea. Your $300 turned into $1000 in 5yrs. If instead, you spent the $100 on a third rookie instead of slabbing, you would have 3 cards. If you slab one now for $50 you are out $350. Sell it for $500 and you have $150 profit and 2 Trout signed rookies for free. In 10yrs, You can sell them for $2K each for the cost of 2 slabs. At worst, slab and sell all 3 now for $450 out and $1500 in. The ratio is roughly the same to buying 2 and slabbing then.

2) Save $2-3K per year slabbing and buy 1 Ruth sig every other year. IN 20yrs, you'll own 10 extra Ruth sigs to add to their inheritance.

The reality is that neither the plastic the slab/sticker is made of, nor the value of the opinion that comes with certing, increases in value with time. The item inside the holder does appreciate with time. There is no difference in the value of the same card slabbed yesterday vs one slabbed 10 yrs ago. This means the value of the slab does not change the value of the card over time. The card is the investment, not the slab.

For our and our family's sake, owning more items that can appreciate over time is better for them financially. So why not spend more of the money we have on getting more items that could go up in value instead of using it to buy something that won't?

When you buy something from someone like Keating, Stinson, Simon, Corcoran, et al, you do so because you understand the value their expertise brings. They are not pimply faced 20 something's who are saying it's good or bad based on just an exemplar file. Those that think the TPAs add "Value" to their autos have been convinced so by their great marketing. They add to the sale price, which is why certing just prior to sale make sense in some cases, if the increase in sale price is higher that the cert cost.