1952 Topps Set Break by burlssports ~ Break Complete

[oldjudge]

Michael--I agree. It's a derivative form where everyone wins "something". As for the other poster asking why should you care what tiebreaker makes--so you can decide if participating is a good deal or not. If the profit is too high, and you like the concept, it may pay you to get a group of friends together, pool your money, and do a communal break where there is no profit.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If the profit is too high, and you like the concept, it may pay you to get a group of friends together, pool your money, and do a communal break where there is no profit.

My thoughts exactly.

[Leon]

I would possibly argue There is no prize. And there being no prize, from my limited understanding, it wouldn't satisfy a tenet of gambling. There is no prize as everyone is buying a card.....yes, it goes to the next tenet of gambling of chance...but we don't get that far as there is no prize. If you guys are worried about it being gambling, don't do it. I am not a gambler either but have bought a card in a break before . And I received exactly what I bought.... a card.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Michael--I agree. It's a derivative form where everyone wins "something". As for the other poster asking why should you care what tiebreaker makes--so you can decide if participating is a good deal or not. If the profit is too high, and you like the concept, it may pay you to get a group of friends together, pool your money, and do a communal break where there is no profit.

[mighty bombjack]

Leon has got it there, as this is all about framing. If you are thinking "I'm going to try and get the Mantle," than it seems like gambling. But if you are thinking "I'm buying a random 1952 Topps card," than it is not.

It is fairly easy to correlate this to buying a pack of baseball cards (or, if you will, a pack of cigarettes in 1910 that have a card included). If you are buying it hoping for that long-shot autograph (or, say, a Mathewson in the other scenario), than you are gambling (and would be better off buying the desired card/cards on the secondary market). I know that many, or perhaps most, people buying packs and boxes these days are hoping for that huge hit, but there are still plenty of us that buy a pack of Topps knowing that we are getting ten baseball cards. Might be worth more than my initial outlay, likely worth less, but I'm happy either way because I went into the transaction looking to buy ten baseball cards.

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Leon has got it there, as this is all about framing. If you are thinking "I'm going to try and get the Mantle," than it seems like gambling. But if you are thinking "I'm buying a random 1952 Topps card," than it is not.

It is fairly easy to correlate this to buying a pack of baseball cards (or, if you will, a pack of cigarettes in 1910 that have a card included). If you are buying it hoping for that long-shot autograph (or, say, a Mathewson in the other scenario), than you are gambling (and would be better off buying the desired card/cards on the secondary market). I know that many, or perhaps most, people buying packs and boxes these days are hoping for that huge hit, but there are still plenty of us that buy a pack of Topps knowing that we are getting ten baseball cards. Might be worth more than my initial outlay, likely worth less, but I'm happy either way because I went into the transaction looking to buy ten baseball cards.

EXACTLY THIS. EVERY SINGLE TIME you buy a pack of baseball cards, it's like a Set Break... except that THIS is more explicit. When you buy a pack of cards you know the price... but there could get 2 of the same crappy cards. The set break sets the ground rules in stone, INCLUDING the EXACT cards that will be distributed. ...plus... it's freaking fun!

If you don't like to join set breaks, don't join them. If you do, have at it. I've joined a couple... got not much to speak of... but I don't have any complaints. I knew EXACTLY what the odds were AND that I WAS going to get a card. As random as a card in a sealed pack.

People complaining sound a bit too much like Grandpa Simpson and the "Old Man Yells At Cloud" headline in the paper.

[kevinlenane]

I wholeheartedly agree with the last post. If a set break is gambling then so is buying a pack of baseball cards. But the better question is - who cares? As others have alluded to - I have dreams about opening a pack of 52 Topps and these set breaks are literally like opening a one card pack. This is exactly why everyone who collects got info the hobby as a kid - the chase. All this legalese around whether it qualifies as gambling is really missing the point which is that IT IS FUN. It brought happiness to hundreds of people on this board which is truly priceless.

We are all fortunate enough to be able to spend spare money on old cardboard simply because we love it. Life is truly short - too short to not enjoy our true privilege of opening a giant awesome pack of old baseball cards so let's loosen our collars up and just smile!

[Beansballcardblog]

I've participated in Justin's set breaks and will again in the future. I support him on Facebook and Twitter through sharing and retweeting and will continue to do so.

If you don't like set breaks, move on. What do you hope to accomplish by posting your opinions here? I'm sure there are things you do, say or think in life that I don't agree with. Unless it affects me, I have no need to say a thing. My participation in a set break doesn't affect anyone but myself. Move along.

A break like this one is the only chance I will ever have to own a copy of one of the most iconic cards in our HOBBY (as a side note, hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable, not filled with drama). I take the same chance when I open a pack of cards.

Keep doing what you do, Justin and Leon. I've dealt with both of you either in person at shows (Leon) or through the joy of the interwebz (Justin) and you've both always done right by me! Thanks to both of you for doing what you do.

[bn2cardz]

This, as advertised, is like buying a pack of cards. Except you know that there is exactly one of every card in the set in the pack break. The concept of gambling at this point comes down to individual expectations. Did you buy in with the expectation that you will get a Mantle? No you bought in knowing you would get a 1952 card and one of those could be a Mantle.

If I buy a pack of 2017 Topps I don't expect that they should tell me what their ROI is if I buy a pack. They do give me odds of hitting certain inserts, but I have to be ok with the idea I may only get base cards and at that point that is what I am paying for.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

This, as advertised, is like buying a pack of cards. Except you know that there is exactly one of every card in the set in the pack break. The concept of gambling at this point comes down to individual expectations. Did you buy in with the expectation that you will get a Mantle? No you bought in knowing you would get a 1952 card and one of those could be a Mantle.

If I buy a pack of 2017 Topps I don't expect that they should tell me what their ROI is if I buy a pack. They do give me odds of hitting certain inserts, but I have to be ok with the idea I may only get base cards and at that point that is what I am paying for.

We clearly think alike!

[oldjudge]

Leon--What's the difference between the break and a lottery where all tickets that now win nothing win a nickel? In both cases everyone is getting an asset with some value. In the case of the break it is a card, in the case of the lottery it is US currency. The lottery has a currency grand prize, the break has the Mantle. It would be interesting if a lawyer chimed in--Peter?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon--What's the difference between the break and a lottery where all tickets that now win nothing win a nickel? In both cases everyone is getting an asset with some value. In the case of the break it is a card, in the case of the lottery it is US currency. The lottery has a currency grand prize, the break has the Mantle. It would be interesting if a lawyer chimed in--Peter?

Do yo view any difference between packs of sports cards and the lottery? If not, than we will disagree. If so, than extrapolate that difference, and you have the answer to your query.

[frankbmd]

I don't participate in set breaks because I am exceedingly unlucky, but the discussion is of some interest.

If I am at a crowded craps table and roll the dice, somebody always wins. Admittedly sometimes it is only the house. In the long run it is always the house.

In a set break the slots are sold by the house and unless the house undervalues the slots, the house always wins again.

The profit margin in both cases is extremely relevant for the participant to consider before either rolling the dice or buying a slot.

The difference between a 2% margin and a 20% margin is ten fold. With the higher margin you will find me in the parking lot a lot sooner, either with empty pockets or a couple of commons in my pocket.

The difference between the two is a matter of semantics.

I would add that you will never see me at a craps table either.

[Leon]

If the house wins then no one won. Some set breaks lose money too.

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I don't participate in set breaks because I am exceedingly unlucky, but the discussion is of some interest.

If I am at a crowded craps table and roll the dice, somebody always wins. Admittedly sometimes it is only the house. In the long run it is always the house.

In a set break the slots are sold by the house and unless the house undervalues the slots, the house always wins again.

The profit margin in both cases is extremely relevant for the participant to consider before either rolling the dice or buying a slot.

The difference between a 2% margin and a 20% margin is ten fold. With the higher margin you will find me in the parking lot a lot sooner, either with empty pockets or a couple of commons in my pocket.

The difference between the two is a matter of semantics.

I would add that you will never see me at a craps table either.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

If the house wins then no one won. Some set breaks lose money too.

Leon,

Both scenarios can be considered zero sum games.

X dollars in = X dollars out

If the house winning doesn't "count" to you, then next month there would be no casino.

If a set break loses money (?), then next month there probably will not be another one.

The incentive for both activities is a guaranteed profit margin.

[bn2cardz]

Ok. My perspective may have changed after doing more research and thinking more.

As mentioned I did equate this to packs of cards, but there may be a thin line of legality here. Even so it was mentioned that the insert cards can be attained through "no purchase necessary" making it seem that even their lawyers knew this was a fine line.

CA (though I don't live there) has specifically come up with a "Grab Bag" law to pertain to this type of issue:

Originally Posted by CA PENAL CODE

319.3.
(a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.

Of course this is a debate about legality not whether I agree with the law.
Now I know that is just one state, but it does mean that it is at least illegal for a portion of the people reading the board. I would have to do more research to see if any other states have similar laws. Either way I just wanted to state I have now changed my perspective given this new information.

[jburl]

Hey guys,

I know we've talked about this before, and I've said something similar before. If you're not comfortable with it, certainly don't do it. For what it's worth, here is the way I see set breaks:

1. You are buying a card from a specific set.
2. The value of the card you happen to get determined by a secondary market.
3. Given 1 and 2, I see set breaks like this similarly to what card companies do when they create a product - some cards have higher demand or lower supply (or both), and are therefore worth more on the secondary market.

The difference is that set breakers are not creating the product; they're outsourcing from several decades ago.

This, of course, is all just my opinion. I'm not a lawyer, and I do have skin the game.

P.S. I do give away a spot in each of my breaks. Does that eliminate consideration? I don't know. I feel like it's a fun way to spread the word - if it helps with the consideration piece, then that's great too.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Leon

If the house wins then no one won. Some set breaks lose money too.

I have never seen a set break lose money. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the person running it knows what they paid for the set, and sets the price per card for the break.

[oldjudge]

What is an Illegal Lottery?
A lottery includes three things: (1) chance, (2) prize, (3) and consideration. To successfully run a contest or sweepstakes and not an illegal lottery, you must eliminate one of these factors. A contest, for example, eliminates chance and a sweepstakes eliminates consideration (typically an entry fee). You must be careful, however, that you are actually eliminating one of the three factors.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What is an Illegal Lottery?
A lottery includes three things: (1) chance, (2) prize, (3) and consideration. To successfully run a contest or sweepstakes and not an illegal lottery, you must eliminate one of these factors. A contest, for example, eliminates chance and a sweepstakes eliminates consideration (typically an entry fee). You must be careful, however, that you are actually eliminating one of the three factors.

Do you think this was an illegal lottery? As Leon said, there is no prize form the point of view of the law, because everyone gets a 1952 Topps card. Some are more valuable than others, sure, but that is no different from sports cards that are sold in packs in general.

It is interesting to note that Topps has a "No purchase necessary" program to help in the very law that you describe ( it is arguable whether or not they need it), and further that the set breaker here had an opportunity for a free slot in the break. One wonders what his motivation for that was...

[oldjudge]

Yes, I think it is an illegal lottery. However, I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV) so consider that when weighing this.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I don't participate in set breaks because I am exceedingly unlucky, but the discussion is of some interest.

If I am at a crowded craps table and roll the dice, somebody always wins. Admittedly sometimes it is only the house. In the long run it is always the house.

In a set break the slots are sold by the house and unless the house undervalues the slots, the house always wins again.

The profit margin in both cases is extremely relevant for the participant to consider before either rolling the dice or buying a slot.

The difference between a 2% margin and a 20% margin is ten fold. With the higher margin you will find me in the parking lot a lot sooner, either with empty pockets or a couple of commons in my pocket.

The difference between the two is a matter of semantics.

I would add that you will never see me at a craps table either.

These are very good points, and the last one is the best of the bunch. By that, I mean that there is a huge difference between saying "people who do breaks like this should have to divulge their profit margins" and "if he doesn't say what the overall set is worth, I'm not participating." No one should argue with the second statement.