Update on PWCC Bid Monitoring Program

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Is this per listing?

I'm not sure if you are being facetious, but I started laughing when I saw that post.....

I'd lower the number to 2 because I can imagine there are times when people bone head something, but 10x isn't a bone head mistake...

[CrackaJackKid]

So what he's saying is that there's only 10 fony bogus accounts shilling and bid retracting now than the previous 25 per item.

[pokerplyr80]

At least it's another step in the right direction. How many of those making fun of Brent's post ban buyers with more than 10 bid retractions from bidding on or buying your cards for sale on ebay?

[nsaddict]

Gotta agree with Jesse! PWCC took the initiative to post here (knowing they'd face critics). There isn't a single ebay seller or auction house that could ever avoid shilling. If you don't like them don't bid, easy enough. I'm not a friend or consignor. I do buy from them, and bid where I feel comfortable.

[vintagerookies51]

People are always going to be complaining about something. Way to take another step in the right direction, Brent

[Topnotchsy]

Brent,

Kudos for this. Looks like a step in a positive direction.

I've got about 25 auctions listed with you that end in the next 2 hours of which I can confirm no shill bidding is being done. (Holding my breath on the Gehrig and Clemente cut autos and Ruth Game Used Patch card since I may take a bath on them...)

[slidekellyslide]

I don't understand why ebay needs to be a party to this? Ebay if they wanted could end bid retractions today, but they don't, and they won't. And this will have zero effect because anyone can and will retract bids if they want to because ebay allows it to happen. Anyone know what it actually takes for a buyer to get the boot from ebay?

Some lady got mad at me for turning her over for non-payment so one night she decided to hit the BIN on 30 or 40 of my highest priced items on ebay. I periodically checked her ebay ID to see if ebay would ban her, they never did. Another bidder asked me to end an auction early for a ridiculously low price, I answered him that I know what they typically sell for and would rather let the auction run to the end. Well he then used two accounts (including the same one he asked me to end the item early) to run up the auction to $1000 on a $300 item. I emailed him to ask him what was up, he denied even bidding on it even though I could see he was the underbidder. I called ebay and the lady told me she could see it was the same person. She said she would cancel their bids. I waited and waited but ebay did not cancel the bids so I did it myself and then blocked both accounts. Neither account was suspended.

Ebay doesn't give one crap what the bidder/buyer is doing as long as sellers keep paying their ebay bill at the end of the month. Shill bidding? Yeah, ebay loves it, more $$$ for them. Why do you think they made it harder for bidders to see each other? Bid retractions? Yeah, ebay doesn't care because they know that retracting a bid is part of the shilling game that makes them more $$$.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

People are always going to be complaining about something. Way to take another step in the right direction, Brent

+1

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Gotta agree with Jesse! PWCC took the initiative to post here (knowing they'd face critics). There isn't a single ebay seller or auction house that could ever avoid shilling. If you don't like them don't bid, easy enough. I'm not a friend or consignor. I do buy from them, and bid where I feel comfortable.

+1

[Snapolit1]

I don't understand the hostility directed at PWCC for at least trying something. I have had real issues with them in the past unrelated to this issue, but it seems like some of you are expecting them to solve eBay weaknesses and cure a few diseases at the same time.

It may be a surprise to some of you, but PWCC can't tell eBay how to run their business. Yes, there is a problem with apparent shill bidding and BS bid retractions on some of their items. Maybe a not insignificant number of their items. There are consignors out there who will have friends and family, and maybe even themselves with alternative accounts, pump up the price of their auction items. This is an auction fact of life. Happens on eBay and happens everywhere else. Could happen at the church auction down the street. The guy bidding against you may have no interest other than helping someone else make more money. Deal with it. It's reality.

As far as bid retractions go, I have no evidence that they are worse for PWCC than any other major card seller. Nor do I have any belief that they are any worse than say some dude selling 10,000 hummels or 10,000 watches a month on ebay. Game playing will go on. If eBay allows people to retract bids with impunity, and PWCC reaches out to them to do something, I take this as both a tacit admission that there is a problem here that should be addressed and a positive sign that Brent thinks his company's credibility is taking a meaningful hit.

My final point is that I DO NOT find 5 bid retractions a day high for an outfit that often has 5,000+ items listed at a time. That might get 25,000+ bids in a day I'd guess. 5 or 10 or even 20 of those bids are retracted. I'd say at least 50% of those could have been genuine errors. Doesn't seem overly crazy to me.

Long winded way of saying that it seems many of you have real problems with eBay and blame PWCC for them.

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

That's true, but I would be hardly surprised to learn that some dudes have been carefully cultivating 10 or 12 separate eBay accounts over the course of a number of years to deal with precisely those kinds of issues.

[Leon]

+2.7 In my experiences almost every time I think of something,
it has been thought of before, usually much before.

Back to the subject. Of course PWCC is an advertiser so that is my biased in it. My view is PWCC is headed in the right direction but as with most others I wish it were a bit quicker. From recent, first hand experience I know change takes time on the bay...

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

That's true, but I would be hardly surprised to learn that some dudes have been carefully cultivated 10 or 12 separate eBay accounts over the course of a number of years to deal with precisely those kinds of issues.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

If someone is inclined to shill their own auction, requiring 10 feedbacks is pretty meaningless.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

If someone is inclined to shill their own auction, requiring 10 feedbacks is pretty meaningless.

You are not going to stop the one guy that wants to shill one auction to sell the one baseball card he owns and will ever own, but you can make it harder for the chronic offenders.

It is still one extra step. One extra PayPal account sign up. 10 fake transactions per account, time to leave the feedback, or payment on a real item they likely don't want. Trails and evidence of fraud. One extra EBay registration.The accounts will eventually be blocked for non paying bids, shilling, and retractions.

Would you want to do this for every auction you list an item in, every 30 days for multiple accounts? The fact that it can be circumvented doesn't mean it is meaningless. The option has been there for 20 years for a reason.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

You are not going to stop the one guy that wants to shill one auction to sell the one baseball card he owns and will ever own, but you can make it harder for the chronic offenders.

It is still one extra step. One extra PayPal account sign up. 10 fake transactions per account, time to leave the feedback, or payment on a real item they likely don't want. Trails and evidence of fraud. One extra EBay registration.The accounts will eventually be blocked for non paying bids, shilling, and retractions.

Would you want to do this for every auction you list an item in, every 30 days for multiple accounts? The fact that it can be circumvented doesn't mean it is meaningless. The option has been there for 20 years for a reason.

I get it that you are trying to find a solution to the problem, but many of the worst chronic offenders of massive retractions have feedback in the thousands and still shill/retract with impunity. As far as requiring 10 feedbacks creating evidence of fraud, again, there are many, many accounts on eBay with feedback in the hundreds or thousands that are on the site despite many retractions.

If eBay doesn't care about accounts with feedback in the thousands that rampantly shill auctions, they are going to be vigilant about someone with 10 feedbacks?

As far as non-paying bids, why would anyone buy an expensive item then not pay if the goal if just to build up your suggested 10 feedbacks. The easy way around that would simply be to buy 10 items at 99 cents or "buy" from yourself/a friend with a different account to simply build up feedback.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

As far as non-paying bids, why would anyone buy an expensive item then not pay if the goal if just to build up your suggested 10 feedbacks. The easy way around that would simply be to buy 10 items at 99 cents or "buy" from yourself/a friend with a different account to simply build up feedback.

I've been convinced for a while that some of these said consignors/consignees have multiples people/multiple accounts bidding up items

edited: the watch count alone, having HUNDREDS more than others sellers with the exact same items, lends credence to this theory

[Exhibitman]

Meaningless window dressing, the asinine equivalent of saying that you are cracking down on drunk driving because you only allow a driver ten DUIs before suspending his license. Here's an idea: bar any bidder with more than two retractions and do it now. All this waiting is nonsense. No amount of double-talk and graphics conceals the fact that your auctions are riddled with fraud, that you know it, and that you would rather aid the crooks in stealing from your customers than resolve the problem.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don't understand the hostility directed at PWCC for at least trying something. I have had real issues with them in the past unrelated to this issue, but it seems like some of you are expecting them to solve eBay weaknesses and cure a few diseases at the same time.

It may be a surprise to some of you, but PWCC can't tell eBay how to run their business. Yes, there is a problem with apparent shill bidding and BS bid retractions on some of their items. Maybe a not insignificant number of their items. There are consignors out there who will have friends and family, and maybe even themselves with alternative accounts, pump up the price of their auction items. This is an auction fact of life. Happens on eBay and happens everywhere else. Could happen at the church auction down the street. The guy bidding against you may have no interest other than helping someone else make more money. Deal with it. It's reality.

As far as bid retractions go, I have no evidence that they are worse for PWCC than any other major card seller. Nor do I have any belief that they are any worse than say some dude selling 10,000 hummels or 10,000 watches a month on ebay. Game playing will go on. If eBay allows people to retract bids with impunity, and PWCC reaches out to them to do something, I take this as both a tacit admission that there is a problem here that should be addressed and a positive sign that Brent thinks his company's credibility is taking a meaningful hit.

My final point is that I DO NOT find 5 bid retractions a day high for an outfit that often has 5,000+ items listed at a time. That might get 25,000+ bids in a day I'd guess. 5 or 10 or even 20 of those bids are retracted. I'd say at least 50% of those could have been genuine errors. Doesn't seem overly crazy to me.

Long winded way of saying that it seems many of you have real problems with eBay and blame PWCC for them.

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Steve. As a lawyer involved in litigation, I constantly see the worst in people--it often seems that whenever money is at stake, morals and ethical behavior get thrown by the wayside, and the more bucks that are at stake, the more the behavior tends towards "anything goes!" I used to get mad as an appellate lawyer when my insurance company retained opponent would write a brief twisting the facts and law and making as many misrepresentations as possible within the allotted page limit. But then I would cool down and simply dismantle these concoctions in my reply brief, and it almost always went badly for opposing counsel who engaged in such tactics at oral argument before a 3-judge panel. But back to the main point: wherever and whenever there is money to be made through unethical behavior, honor and integrity serve as no barrier at all to a substantial portion of the population. It appears to me that Brent is at least trying to do something to head some of this BS off, and as determined as the scammers are, it's like Ringo Starr said way back in 1971: "It don't come easy."

Best regards,

Larry

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.

Just for comparison if you look through your own listings do your bidders have that type of bid retraction rate? I would guess they don't but am curious.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I run very few auctions anymore, so not a great basis for comparison. That being said, I was more pointing out the progress within his auctions. 6 months ago the numbers would've looked nothing like what I discovered. Again I think there were 4 bidders out of about 48 that I checked that had ANY retractions and only one of those had more than 3. These were the top bidders on the most expensive items he has going.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.

When I was looking at the Jordan listings, I put his name in into the search of PWCC auctions, then sorted by most bids. I expected to find a couple auctions here and there that looked a bit shady, but was a bit surprised when I really looked at how rampant the retractions/shilling was.