Printing press plates for cards

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

"Really" like the way you have the display set up. Any way to get a picture of how you have this whole players collection set up maybe a bit farther away? I see, I think, a transparency and the Topps file of items the player received as gifts. Some neat items you have there.

Also, I wish I knew more on the printing process (even though it's been explained to me before) since there are at least 6 plates for the same card. Plus they have the color separations, transparency, print photo, etc for each card produced?!?

Modern stuff will typically only have four plates/colors. Topps did a few things a bit differently at times, and did a lot more proofing prototyping, etc than the place I worked. We pretty much did almost no proofing at all. Maybe a mockup to get customer approval, but I wasn't involved in the sales end at all.

I think Topps did so much because they needed a lot of approvals for the different sets.

Because they did so much, some of what they did is pretty foreign to me. For example I never saw one of the transparent overlay proofs until Topps vault started selling them.

I think once the proofing was over their production system was very close to what I'm familiar with.

Steve B

Steve B

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by steve B

Modern stuff will typically only have four plates/colors. Topps did a few things a bit differently at times, and did a lot more proofing prototyping, etc than the place I worked. We pretty much did almost no proofing at all. Maybe a mockup to get customer approval, but I wasn't involved in the sales end at all.

I think Topps did so much because they needed a lot of approvals for the different sets.

Because they did so much, some of what they did is pretty foreign to me. For example I never saw one of the transparent overlay proofs until Topps vault started selling them.

I think once the proofing was over their production system was very close to what I'm familiar with. Steve B

Steve...just so you know you were the one I was referring to when it came to going over the printing process in the past (I think it was in a thread referring to progressive proofs if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, if the modern cards have 4 plates, how many did the more vintage cards have? Was it one for each color? I've seen as many as 10 progressive proofs; does that mean they used 10 printing plates... We know in this example it's at least 6.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Steve...just so you know you were the one I was referring to when it came to going over the printing process in the past (I think it was in a thread referring to progressive proofs if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, if the modern cards have 4 plates, how many did the more vintage cards have? Was it one for each color? I've seen as many as 10 progressive proofs; does that mean they used 10 printing plates... We know in this example it's at least 6.

Hi mark,

I think I get the question. Actually Ted's pic shows what looks like 5. The last one I am unsure as to what pass it is as it is so light. It's a bit of a mystery to me as to why there is 5 different in his collection as here is what I know about topps process. (I am a hack mind you, not an expert)

The vintage cards used a RGB 4 color process. This would be 4 passes of red, green, blue and black. Modern cards use a CMYK process, this is 4 passes of cyan, magenta, yellow and black.

This is how I understand it, if someone can correct me that's fine.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Hi mark,

I think I get the question. Actually Ted's pic shows what looks like 5. The last one I am unsure as to what pass it is as it is so light.

This is how I understand it, if someone can correct me that's fine.

Justin,

You are correct that Ted pictured 5 plates, but he said he sold one of the plates which would have made 6 total. What I didnt consider, when I asked the question, was what Steve said about the number same player cards on a sheet. Therefore, if the card is on there more than once the number of plates would of course be more.

You mentioned you were a hack when it came to the printing process, but as you can see I haven't even reached the hack level.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Justin,

You are correct that Ted pictured 5 plates, but he said he sold one of the plates which would have made 6 total. What I didnt consider, when I asked the question, was what Steve said about the number same player cards on a sheet. Therefore, if the card is on there more than once the number of plates would of course be more.

You mentioned you were a hack when it came to the printing process, but as you can see I haven't even reached the hack level.

Lol.

My belief is if someone ever says they know everything then they certainly can't know anything.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Steve...just so you know you were the one I was referring to when it came to going over the printing process in the past (I think it was in a thread referring to progressive proofs if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, if the modern cards have 4 plates, how many did the more vintage cards have? Was it one for each color? I've seen as many as 10 progressive proofs; does that mean they used 10 printing plates... We know in this example it's at least 6.

The overall process specifics have varied over the years.

As Justin pointed out some modern cards ( I'm using "modern" to apply to cards printed with a typically 4 color processs of some sort, which is mostly postwar) Will be either CMYK - or without fancy names, pink blue yellow black, Or RGB - red green blue black.

Some Topps cards even into the 70's and 80's appear to have areas of solid color that isn't an overlaid color. Plus they have gloss and occasionally an underlayer of white which could be taken as colors 5 and 6. (The underlayer is more noticeable when it's on the back which is a straight two color printing until they added color pictures to it)

Much older processes like the one for T206 would often use a lot more individual colors, typically for T206 it's around 8 depending on the card, at least 6, although I suspect there are very few that are only 6 with most being 8 or more. Some cigar box labels are 12+ colors.

Then there's sets done with processes that are variable in colors, quality, and type. Like 49 Leaf, where there's at least 3-4 identifiable runs using different colors, Pink vs red, and sometimes there's shading sometimes there isn't.

On the 1962 plates, since some cards were on a sheet multiple times there could be two plate pieces of the same card/color.

Steve B

[Tedw9]

I can't speak to all plates, but here is what I've read in the past about the '62 variations which may speak to the number I have.

1962 series 2 Topps was still selling well when series 3 was ready to be printed. They had the plates shipped to another printer (green tints?) so they could continue printing series 2 as well as start 3. On the way an unknown incident happened, a few plates were ruined and some people/poses were changed. Again, not sure why. This is the story I read some time back, I may have a screen shot saved or something. Maybe they made up extra plates for a few because the previous accident? I don't know, I'm just throwing out therioies.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Tedw9

I can't speak to all plates, but here is what I've read in the past about the '62 variations which may speak to the number I have.

1962 series 2 Topps was still selling well when series 3 was ready to be printed. They had the plates shipped to another printer (green tints?) so they could continue printing series 2 as well as start 3. On the way an unknown incident happened, a few plates were ruined and some people/poses were changed. Again, not sure why. This is the story I read some time back, I may have a screen shot saved or something. Maybe they made up extra plates for a few because the previous accident? I don't know, I'm just throwing out therioies.

That makes sense.

Thanks for the better reply Steve. Yes in my response I was using modern in reference to the "shiny" modern era and vintage to postwar on to shiny.

[JustinD]

Ted,

I have to ask, even halfway seriously, has your research lead you to what happened to the gap in Carl's teeth between 1962 and 1963?

[Tedw9]

Actually, I was friends with him so yes I do know. It was something he was very self conscious of and just had them fixed.

And he hated his 1958 rookie card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tedw9

I can't speak to all plates, but here is what I've read in the past about the '62 variations which may speak to the number I have.

1962 series 2 Topps was still selling well when series 3 was ready to be printed. They had the plates shipped to another printer (green tints?) so they could continue printing series 2 as well as start 3. On the way an unknown incident happened, a few plates were ruined and some people/poses were changed. Again, not sure why. This is the story I read some time back, I may have a screen shot saved or something. Maybe they made up extra plates for a few because the previous accident? I don't know, I'm just throwing out therioies.

I'd be really surprised if they shipped actual plates. They were printing cards on double sheets by then, two 132 card sheets side by side. So the plates were both thin aluminum and really large. Sure, they could be shipped, but it would be expensive and a nuisance.
And once they're mounted in the press they get used and worn, and the tensioning stretches them slightly. I've never heard of reusing them in a commercial press. We saved them for recycling, unless I used one for a dustpan(We never bought a dustpan, since we usually had a stack of plates.)

More likely candidates for shipping would be either the original art, which could have been comparatively small panels with the borders and pictures basically pasted to a bit of thicker cardboard.
Or the "masks" one for each color, and basically a huge negative. 62s may have been large negatives, but they're usually a special opaque paper with the negatives taped onto it and holes cut where they want the negative to show.
The woodgrain border would be why the 62s could have been a group of really large negatives.

The masks would have shipped pretty easily rolled up in a tube.

Steve B