"Is the George Davis Sovereign 350 a Hoax?"

[HobokenJon]

Hi, Art. Per your comment: "First and foremost, just because a grading company has not graded a confirmed T206 front/back combination doesn't mean its unconfirmed."

You're missing the point, wittingly or otherwise. In the matter of the occasionally rumored forest green Sovereign 350 George Davis (a.k.a. the Loch Ness Monster...pun intended), the issue at hand is whether T206 Resource and SGC can back up their claims of its existence with proof or, short of that, a mere scintilla of evidence. I have asked them both. SGC told me at this month's Philly Show that it cannot, and that the entry could be a data error. The mandarins at T206 Resource haven't replied to my e-mails, or to the pointed (but unfailingly polite) questions put to them on this board.

It is well known there are glaring inaccuracies in SGC's and PSA's population reports. So this wouldn't be the first time. Here are two examples, to illustrate.

Go to the SGC pop report, type T206 for the set name and Spike Shannon for the player name. Hit the search key. You'll see a lone Piedmont 150 listed there, graded SGC 70. Under set name it says: "1909 Piedmont Cigarettes." Except, as most of us know, that's impossible, because Shannon is part of the 350-only series. Or go look up the lone Molly Miller with the Sweet Cap back that's listed in PSA's pop report. For those who don't recognize his name, Miller is a Southern Leaguer, and Southern Leaguers weren't printed with Sweet Cap backs.

Absent facts that provide evidence of confirmation, it seems to me far more likely that T206 Resource and SGC both erred on this occasion. So, for the time being, I'll continue to classify the putative forest green Sovereign 350 George Davis on my own checklist as "unconfirmed." (Thank you for your concern, Art.) The same goes for the other cards Luke listed in his fine, well-researched article, which I again encourage everyone to read here: http://www.thatt206life.com/2017/03/...gn-350-a-hoax/

Regards,
Jon

[HobokenJon]

On a related matter . . . Art, given your position as a senior contributor to T206 Resource, could you please address the question of why T206 Resource lists a Sovereign 350 forest green Fred Clarke (portrait) as "confirmed" on one page of its website, but as a "probable no print" elsewhere on its website? Which one is correct? If it's confirmed, how does T206 Resource know that?

As a reminder, the Clarke (portrait) is one of the cards that Luke cited in his article.

It's listed as confirmed here:
http://www.t206resource.com/Checklis...ToDetails=True

But it's listed as "probable no print" here:
http://www.t206resource.com/Sovereig...Checklist.html

[ty_cobb]

Its 2017. The 'measure' of what the population of t206s in part seems to be gleaned from grading data. the average bear sends in 10-20 cards. You have to remember older collectors could buy or access lots of 100+ cards in one sale. The sample size of what someone could see in a year was 10 -50 times what it is now. relying in psa or sgc data is a relatively small sample size to whats out there.

When the grading guys started they didnt have any knowledge of what fronts could be on what backs anyways. Advanced collectors kept their own lists. In a sense collectors didnt give a damn about the knowledge of that anyways, its was only valuable if you could acquire the physical 1 of 1 card before someone else. I always found that to be a real shame... many collectors put in a life time to collecting these cards and catalog them ,, but strangely the research itself is discounted. But why? The grading card company doesnt have a scan of what he graded either! How silly. Does that mean in the future what the pop reports are will trump the research of veteran collectors , when the grading companies have no scans or records themselves,,,lol

[HobokenJon]

So the pseudonymous Ty Cobb says: "many collectors put in a life time to collecting these cards and catalog them ,, but strangely the research itself is discounted. But why? The grading card company doesnt have a scan of what he graded either! How silly. Does that mean in the future what the pop reports are will trump the research of veteran collectors , when the grading companies have no scans or records themselves,,,lol"

And Art says: "I feel very confident with my research."

I agree with Mr. Cobb -- in general terms -- about "the research of veteran collectors." And I agree with Mr. Cobb wholeheartedly about the reliability of grading companies, or lack thereof.

But anytime a supposed expert responds to a series of reasonable, fact-based questions with, "I feel very confident with my research," I have to ask: Why should I feel very confident with your research?

[ty_cobb]

I/m looking for a scan of the card. Thought i had it, will look ...

[HobokenJon]

How about a video of you holding the card and showing us the front and back (and sides, too)? It would be easy for me to show you scans of a Davis front and the back of a Sovereign 350, but they would be from two different cards.

[PhillipAbbott79]

While you do that, hold up your drivers license and the current day's newspaper then mail your Ancestry DNA kit.

[HobokenJon]

That would be terrific, assuming it's an authentic Ty Cobb driver's license, preferably accompanied by Ty Cobb's PSA-authenticated death certificate (autographed by Mr. Cobb, of course).