Having it Both Ways (Dealer Gripe)

[polakoff]

Originally Posted by Buckswin07

Here is where I think the dealer and most dealers are coming from;

And please note, I'm not siding with the dealer on this one. I'm siding with just about anyone who sells a card.

We all want to make a buck or two selling right? No one buys a house and hopes to sell it 5, 10, 20 years later for less than they paid for it. When the dealer is willing to talk book value on some cards and strays away from the book on others, I think he is simply basing his price on what he paid for the said card(s). Dealers are there to make money. Remember, most dealers do not acquire their inventory out of a shoe box in a closet. Like you, they buy, perhaps in larger quantities. In tern, a dealer wants to sell you a card for more than he paid for it. Simple as that. When negotiating, if you refer to book price, a dealer may not care about that simply because he knows what he has invested into the card and knows what he must get out of it to turn a profit, pay for his booth space that weekend etc etc.

When negotiating with a dealer, I found that showing empathy can soften them up. Stating things like, "hey I know you need to make a buck on this card, but comparable sales show blah blah" Or "I know your not set up at this show as a volunteer so how close to book price can we get so that you can keep the electricity on at home" By showing empathy but then negotiating, If found my experiences with 95% of dealers to be very reasonable. There are always a few bad apples that have zero people skills, but those are pretty easy to pick up on early in the conversation....That's when I pretend my phone is ringing and need to step away to take a call.

As both a collector and a dealer I'd like to quote this for importance. I too walk away from tables without some kind of pricing on there (or with stickers where the dealer says "that's the book price, I'll work with you"), so I price my stuff. Every item on my table has a price and in general that's the price I'm looking for. Do I have wiggle room? A little, but not much. But I am much more likely to have wiggle room with these people:
A) the people who buy in somewhat larger quantities and politely ask "what can you do for me?" (rather than "hey I'll give you $X for this")
B) the people who spend a really long time at my table and are polite to other customers (getting out of their way, sharing a box, etc)
C) the people who talk to/are friendly with me

Since I appreciate those tactics I try to be the same way with other dealers when I go to a show as a buyer. But, every now and then (actually...relatively frequently of late) you meet the guys who aren't personable. I don't care to dignify them with my money.

In general though (back to OP's point) I actually just avoid any table where I see a dealer with a price guide or who has signs that say things like "50% of book", etc. The only times I'll go through those boxes is if they aren't in a meticulous order and something like an error/variation might have slipped through. Book is bad at shows. The second a dealer says the word book, I walk.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think basically most sellers use these various weapons in various order but ends the same way:

1. This is what SMR is
2. This is the book price
3. Yes i am charging more than than either #1 or #2 but my card is much better example. ie. better centering
4. Yes, my card has bad centering but look at the POP?
5. Look at VCP
6. Yes, I am asking for more than VCP but the card is trending up
7. Yes the card is not trending up in the last few sales, but there is a current auction in which the card is already bid to X.
8. Yes the card is not trending up and there is no current auction but this card is undervalued.

Now the end all be all :

9. I am must trying to get what I paid for the card. (so market value means nothing)

With the grand ending.

10. If cant sell ill keep it, 'dont have to sell it'

[packs]

I don't think a lot of the guys at card shows even want to sell their cards. If they did, there's no logic behind the pricing. I don't believe in paying more for something because I bought it in person. We live in the age of the internet. I can buy anything any time I want. You should give me a decent price to buy your item here today while you're renting a table which costs you money whether you sell a card or not. Maybe that's a controversial opinion, but I think buying in person should get you a discount, particularly if you're paying cash.

[JeremyW]

I think that dealers are competing with us collectors on Ebay & major auction houses. They keep driving up the prices because they can't get the finds that they did in the good old days.

[Exhibitman]

Well having been on both sides of the table for 30+ years (damn I am getting old), there are a lot of cross-cutting issues at work at the same time for dealers.

I usually bring some 'eye candy' to shows, cards I really do not want to sell unless I get a really great offer. Call it the live equivalent of a crazy BIN on eBay. So they definitely fall under the my way or the highway banner. I've gotten those offers from time to time.

Many of the weekend warriors who take a space at a local show don't do this for a living. They do it to get the chance at wholesale buys, to make some cash for further collecting, to gradually downsize, or because the wife demands it. In other words, moving inventory is not the only priority. One of our members here (I won't say who since his wife may be reading) once had an entire showcase at one National full of cards that were priced so high that they were basically not for sale because he had promised his wife he would take them to the show and offer them for sale. As far as I know he's still married and got away with it!

eBay has both killed shows and made selling at them less desperate. While it is always nice to make lots of sales, I don't "have to" move merch at a show because I can list it in my eBay store and retail it there.

The issue of when to take a loss is a difficult one. I certainly have cards I am upside down on. I sell them from time to time when it makes sense. One observation on this: I am much more likely to sustain a loss on a sale if I have had a really strong sale day already. If I am asked to discount and lose money at the start of the day, I am less likely to do so, but with a wad of cash in hand, I might say WTF. eBay affects that too: I don't "have to" take a loss at a show because I can probably find a buyer online if I am going to lose money.

[polakoff]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The issue of when to take a loss is a difficult one. I certainly have cards I am upside down on. I sell them from time to time when it makes sense. One observation on this: I am much more likely to sustain a loss on a sale if I have had a really strong sale day already. If I am asked to discount and lose money at the start of the day, I am less likely to do so, but with a wad of cash in hand, I might say WTF. eBay affects that too: I don't "have to" take a loss at a show because I can probably find a buyer online if I am going to lose money.

This is funny because I'm the opposite. If I know I'm upside down on a card and I get an offer I think is fair and is somewhat close to the card, I'd rather start my day knowing it's off my plate and knowing that I can pay for my tables/transportation/hotel/food with the sale. If I've made a good deal of money at the show, I'd rather hang onto the card and hope I can get a stronger offer since I already made my money.

[JollyElm]

A bit off topic, but do you know what drives me absolutely bananas at card shows??? Reality.

When I'm looking through a dealer's box full of cards from, say, 1970, and I see a common I need to upgrade and he has about 15 of them. Then in his 'star' box, he has 10 or more Steve Carltons and other HOF'ers. Just so many multiples of cards. And when you go to the next dealer, they too have countless doubles of cards. And this is just in one tiny corner of a card show in a small California town. It makes me realize how many untold thousands/millions of the same card are out there across the country. Then take a look at one of those '3 cards for a dollar' box a lot of dealers have and all the various types of cards found in it. Hundreds and hundreds of 'forgotten' cards that are basically worthless. How many of those cards exist? Millions and millions and millions.

Even rookie cards like Nolan Ryan, Reggie Jackson, etc. How many of those suckers were (mass) produced? There will never be any sort of shortage.

I don't know what the point of this post is, except to say that card shows are great, but they make it obvious how rare nothing truly is in the Topps era of baseball cards (I know, I know, some people will disagree with that, but it's a general point). Well, except for some variations. That's why I love collecting them.

Hope I didn't bum anybody out…because I definitely bummed myself out.

[bbcard1]

The two worst kind of dealers to negotiate with are those who've had a really good day and those who've had a really bad day.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

9. I am must trying to get what I paid for the card. (so market value means nothing)

With the grand ending.

10. If cant sell ill keep it, 'dont have to sell it'

Both of these describe me. I am now a collector that occasionally sells extras or stuff I no longer want.

So I will sell it but if I don't get my price I will happily keep it.

One thing that really amazes me about people is they expect a real card dealer to be able to compete with the prices of someone on eBay. The real dealer has to pay all sorts of fees and taxes. The average guy on eBay has no overhead and does not pay taxes(the thing that pays for all the stuff we take for granted).

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by bnorth

. The average guy on eBay has no overhead and does not pay taxes(the thing that pays for all the stuff we take for granted).

As a seller on ebay, once all of the fees, expenses, paypal costs, etc are added up, the total accounts for almost 28% of my income. When I set up at shows, my expenses were about an equal percent of my income.

Breaking down my income by percent, COG=42%, Expenses=28% and profit =30%.

You may ask about why that 28% is so high when ebay FVF=10% and paypal is FVF is 3%. Here are several things to consider....with the total fees I paid to paypal, over a third of the total amount paid to paypal are the 30 cent transaction fees. The 10% in FVFs paid to ebay does not include the cost of the monthly store fee. Part of my expenses are my s/h costs....10% of my total income goes to cover s/h costs. If you back out my s/h income/expenses, my ebay/pp fees are 18% of my income.

As far as taxes, due to the number of transactions I complete , I receive a 1099K from paypal, so after my accountant figures in all of my deductions, I have an effective tax rate of 17-18% of my profit.

When I sold at shows, all of my income was cash....no taxes paid.

After spending some time on a "tri state" show circuit in my area, I much prefer selling online from home, but my expenses are far greater selling from home.


While most sellers do not sell enough to receive a 1099k, my guess is most ebay sellers have a similar percent breakdown of total income(before taxes) on their expense portion.

[hcv123]

SO many opinions - that's what makes the world go 'round.....so I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I was a part time dealer for about 10 years, setting up at shows large and small. I have been an avid collector for the better part of 30. For me pricing has been more a function of supply and demand as well as my knowledge of a card(s) that I have for sale. For example if I am selling a card that 10 other guys in the room/on ebay are likely to have in comparable condition - I choose to compete on price to make the sale. It is as if more of a commodity and the sale of it is most likely to be influenced by price. If on the other hand I am selling something I know to be rare or possibly unique - I know I have a lot of room to price it high and be firm. I have sold items that I am most certain I will never own again in my life - I will wait for the collector who understands and is willing to pay. As a buyer/collector I do the opposite - Negotiate hard on commoditized cards and willing to pay high for the rare ones.
I think many forget the "book" is a "guide" - not a current buy/ask. I know my inventory or what I am looking for well (most of the time). I encourage you to do the same.
Regarding OP - definitely a bit frustrating if a dealer is using the "book" in some cases and not in others.

[SMPEP]

I'm with Adam. As someone who is a weekend warrior that has only ever set up at his shows, most of my stuff (the commoditized stuff - especially lower grade conditioned of commoditized cards) are priced to move. That's probably 80% of my stuff that I bring.

But I do have another 20% on display that is NOT priced that way. Like Adam they are cards designed to get eyeballs and I'm not really trying to sell them. If you give me a number I can't refuse, okay. But I have no INTENTION of selling them. Those are pieces in my collection that I really prefer to keep.

So why do I bring pieces like this? One, it gets people to look, but more importantly, if I have obscure stuff I'm trying to collect, people will see them and say - "golly, I have one like that." (You'd be amazed how many times the word "Golly" is used at Adam's shows.) And that's when I get to turn the tables and say - "Are you selling?"

When I set up, the best day isn't the day I sold the most. The best day is when I bought something I can't find any other place. I'm still waiting for that walk in Reiser grey back though!

Cheers,
Patrick

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

When I sold at shows, all of my income was cash....no taxes paid.

A 1099 is just a report of how much you received, not how much you profited. Tax fraud is not a business strategy, it is a crime, and a dumb one at that. If you just don't pay taxes at all you will end up in the hobby wing at Leavenworth. Hope Mark Allen is a good cellie...Maybe he'll share his soap on a rope.

Taxes should not be an issue. If you are paying taxes on a profit, that is the same as in any other trade. The question is how do you minimize your tax exposure. There are ways to do it within the confines of a card business but they require planning and organization; I won't discuss the nuts and bolts so as not to be seen as providing legal or accounting advice. But just saying "F*** it" and not paying anything, that is amateurish.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

A 1099 is just a report of how much you received, not how much you profited. Tax fraud is not a business strategy, it is a crime, and a dumb one at that. If you just don't pay taxes at all you will end up in the hobby wing at Leavenworth. Hope Mark Allen is a good cellie...Maybe he'll share his soap on a rope.

Taxes should not be an issue. If you are paying taxes on a profit, that is the same as in any other trade. The question is how do you minimize your tax exposure. There are ways to do it within the confines of a card business but they require planning and organization; I won't discuss the nuts and bolts so as not to be seen as providing legal or accounting advice. But just saying "F*** it" and not paying anything, that is amateurish.

I am quite aware of the purpose of a 1099, not sure why you need to explain the purpose of a 1099 as I NEVER made any mention of a 1099 being used to report profits????


In regards to shows, I set up at about 5 shows a year over a 3-4 year period in order to sell off duplicates and had less than $1k in INCOME at each show. When I figured in my EXPENSES and COG, I had very little PROFIT (which is what I would pay my taxes on). I am quite sure if I needed to pay taxes on that absolute MINISCULE amount that I did make profit wise at the few shows I set up at, my accountant likely could have found some additional deduction to offset it. In some cases, I spent my INCOME from the show on new inventory at the show before leaving.

This would be like my wife reporting the $150 (cash) she "made" at our most recent garage sale as taxable income. Not really worth it.


As mentioned in my above post, to ensure my taxes are handled correctly is why I currently employ an accountant to handle my taxes...this allows me to minimize my tax exposure with my online selling and to ensure I am not ending up with Mark Allen.

My guess is almost EVERY member of this board (who lives in an applicable state) is guilty of not declaring and paying their state's usage tax on their out of state online purchases. Since I am set up as a sole proprietorship, I avoid paying these usage taxes in my state on any of the purchases I make in order to resell through my "business". There is a lot more exposure in regards to use taxes not being paid than weekend warriors who after expenses and COG make $50 profit at a card show.

Perhaps it is common at the shows you run for all of the sellers to report every dime of their income....in my area, in speaking with the dealers set up at the shows I did, I met just one dealer who did report his income. For this one dealer, card selling is his profession while the rest of these dealers were weekend warriors unloading their duplicates for very little if any PROFIT.