Prices coming down...

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Seems to me that its much more difficulty to manipulate the prices of pre-war cards (especially very old one like T206 or Allen/Ginters) than post-war, based purely on scarcity; .

Wouldn't it be much easier? You have a T206 red Cobb and you manipulate the market and then profit. With a 1955 Clemente your plan might be ruined if other cards are sold during your manipulation or if other cards come out for sale the same time. The older cards are just fewer in quantity so they might not have them in hand to profit from manipulation.

[Rhotchkiss]

That's exactly my point! There 188 PSA 8 Clementes, making it much more likely that one person (or a group of people) has a bunch of 8's to profit from once a single 9 (or a few 8's) go for crazy prices. Inversely, with only 24 Red Cobb 8's out there, the odds are much less than someone has enough 8's or 7's, etc. to make it worth the while to attempt to manipulate. Plus, the sale of a single high-grade Cobb at normal prices during this process can much more easily derail a manipulation, than a series of repeated, rapid sales of a 1950 HOFer all at huge prices thus establishing an apparent value. I am not saying it cant be done (and isn't done) with the older/scarcer cards, I am just saying it seems much harder and much less opportunistic than a 1950's card, which has so many more high grade examples.

And Clemente vs Red Cobb is a gratuitous example in that Clemente is a relatively tough/rarer card as far as 19050's rookies go and the Red Cobb is likely the most commonly graded T206. Juxtapose this against other 19050's rookies that are believed to be manipulated -- over 320 PSA 8 Koufax, almost 500 PSA 8 Roses, and over 1000 PSA 8 Nolan Ryan RCs -- against a more rare T206 like the Green Cobb with only 10 PSA 8's, or Cy Young Portrait with only 14 PSA 8's (and very few 9's, if any, of either).

[Touch'EmAll]

Perhaps its all in which cards you are watching.

3 cards I watched recently thru PWCC are as follows:

1970 Ryan PSA 8 - PWCC just ended at $483. The last 3 non-PWCC's went for $307., $315., and $320. respectively.

1966 Aaron PSA 8 - PWCC just ended at $798. The last 3 non-PWCC's went for $483., $499., and $499. respectively.

1962 Mays PSA 7 - PWCC just ended at $ 814. The last 2 non-PWCC's went for $350., and $305. respectively.

Most of the time, not always, PWCC gets higher prices. (for what I watch and am interested in). If I were to sell similar stuff, I would think sending to PWCC for sale would be a smart move.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Perhaps its all in which cards you are watching.

3 cards I watched recently thru PWCC are as follows:

1970 Ryan PSA 8 - PWCC just ended at $483. The last 3 non-PWCC's went for $307., $315., and $320. respectively.

1966 Aaron PSA 8 - PWCC just ended at $798. The last 3 non-PWCC's went for $483., $499., and $499. respectively.

1962 Mays PSA 7 - PWCC just ended at $ 814. The last 2 non-PWCC's went for $350., and $305. respectively.

Most of the time, not always, PWCC gets higher prices. (for what I watch and am interested in). If I were to sell similar stuff, I would think sending to PWCC for sale would be a smart move.

providing they got to those levels honestly I would agree. I consigned 4 items with PWCC this past summer, assuming they would get blockbuster prices. Needless to say I did not shill, or pump the bids in any way. All four items did OK (right about what I could've gotten) but sold for significantly less than the identical items went for in both the auctions before and after the one mine were in. Coincidence?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

providing they got to those levels honestly I would agree. I consigned 4 items with PWCC this past summer, assuming they would get blockbuster prices. Needless to say I did not shill, or pump the bids in any way. All four items did OK (right about what I could've gotten) but sold for significantly less than the identical items went for in both the auctions before and after the one mine were in. Coincidence?

Touche.....don't feel bad though. Honesty IS the best policy. It may not help your pocketbook, but....err......you know what I mean!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

providing they got to those levels honestly I would agree. I consigned 4 items with PWCC this past summer, assuming they would get blockbuster prices. Needless to say I did not shill, or pump the bids in any way. All four items did OK (right about what I could've gotten) but sold for significantly less than the identical items went for in both the auctions before and after the one mine were in. Coincidence?

i would never assume blockbuster prices....expectations way too high. Would depend on the cards you consigned...very few cards are 'identical' plus centering can be even a 50% bump in price depending so who knows. Not saying there was not shilling involved in other actions but could be legit reasons as well

[Beastmode]

Little over two weeks ago PSA 8 Clemente sold for $28K. Not even a year ago it sold for $150k. Almost two years ago, sold for.....$28K. Call if whatever you want, but manipulators need fools with money. And fools with money are begging to be shilled because they don't snipe. And AH's need the fools with money to believe that their anti-sniping software with endless bidding is unrelated to the massive shilling and non-payments. Gotta love this hobby.

Just got my plane tickets to the national with my son. It will be a blast.

[iwantitiwinit]

Would love to know who paid 150k for that Clemente last year.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

Little over two weeks ago PSA 8 Clemente sold for $28K. Not even a year ago it sold for $150k. Almost two years ago, sold for.....$28K. Call if whatever you want, but manipulators need fools with money. And fools with money are begging to be shilled because they don't snipe. And AH's need the fools with money to believe that their anti-sniping software with endless bidding is unrelated to the massive shilling and non-payments. Gotta love this hobby.

Just got my plane tickets to the national with my son. It will be a blast.

That card was off centered and wouldn't grade 8 today. Clemente RC is very hard to find to find centered, so you can't compare 8oc or off centered 8s to those that are well centered, which have brought as much as 45k this year. There is little doubt that the 150k or others that sold high last year never were paid for.

A PSA 2 t206 Wagner sold for 777k last year and 600k this year. Are prices on Wagners crashing or was the first in better condition that the second? All cards that receive the same grade aren't equal and no one should be surprised that when you find the worst one for the grade, that it is going to be the lowest sale.