New SGC grading fees

[ngnichols]

Anyone who pays a higher price depending upon what their card is worth is a sucker. The PSA/SGC argument is better than BVG is a crock of crap.

Anyone who knows who's really grading at BGS/BVG knows that Andy Broome does the vintage grading at Beckett and was a senior grader for PSA.

Anyone can go pull out horrible examples/mistakes by each company and use those extremes of why not to utilize that company.

Accuracy AND Consistency is where one should judge each company. The reason Beckett has gotten a bad rap is that they had previously put out they would grade a sheet-cut card so long that it measured up to the measurements set-forth by the card companies.

I would argue that quite a bit of the vintage I've submitted to BVG has been as good or better than PSA examples and has come back with lesser grades.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by ngnichols

Anyone who pays a higher price depending upon what their card is worth is a sucker. The PSA/SGC argument is better than BVG is a crock of crap.

Anyone who knows who's really grading at BGS/BVG knows that Andy Broome does the vintage grading at Beckett and was a senior grader for PSA.

Anyone can go pull out horrible examples/mistakes by each company and use those extremes of why not to utilize that company.

Accuracy AND Consistency is where one should judge each company. The reason Beckett has gotten a bad rap is that they had previously put out they would grade a sheet-cut card so long that it measured up to the measurements set-forth by the card companies.

I would argue that quite a bit of the vintage I've submitted to BVG has been as good or better than PSA examples and has come back with lesser grades.

There is a guy that is active in the hobby who had a 1970 Topps Nolan Ryan bump from a PSA 9 to a PSA 10. A $36,000 increase at the time simply because PSA rendered a different and more favorable opinion. When he got the email or call that they were going to charge his credit card more because the value of the card was higher than what service level it was submitted under you really think the first thing that crossed his mind is man I am sucker. You have to be kidding with this statement.

I don't have any cards in this price range but I promise you this that if I ever send in a card and get contacted by PSA saying I owe them more money, the first thing out of my mouth is going to be Woooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

[irv]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

They realize they are handing you money and want a piece of the action. It seems pretty fair to me.

I disagree. There is no way a TPG should be charging more to grade a card just because it is worth more. Why should they benefit from your good fortune?

Imo, they should just be glad you chose them as the TPG of choice and not someone else. They also receive free advertising, which, of course, equals more sales, more $$$, when these cards come up for auction.

To me, it's like if you happened upon a $1000 dollar card that you got for a $100, then the next guys says, I will give you $150 because you only paid $100 for it yourself.

[Leon]

It has been done for years.

Go get a coin graded by PCGS and this is their top tier..$250 + 1% of value ..A 2 million dollar coin would be $20,250 to grade....


SERVICE MAXIMUM
COIN VALUE ESTIMATED TURNAROUND
(BUSINESS DAYS) PRICE
RARITIES None** 2 - 5 days $250 + 1%*
WALKTHROUGH $100,000** 2 days $125
EXPRESS $20,000 5 days $60
REGULAR $3,000 15 days $32
ECONOMY(Non-Gold, Non-Hammered)
(Pre-1932 Chinese and Pre-1925 Russian coins must be submitted at the Regular Service level or higher.) $300 20 - 30 days $20
MODERN (1965 to date) $1,000 20 - 30 days $16
MINT ERRORS $20,000 25 - 35 days $60
SPECIAL ISSUES (U.S. - Colonials, Fractional Gold, Patterns, Territorials) $20,000 25 - 35 days $60
GUARANTEE RESUBMISSION
(Charge refunded if coin downgrades) None up to 60 days $25
REHOLDER None** 5 days $12
SHOW SERVICES
SHOW RARITY None** 4 hours $250 + 1%*
SHOW EXPRESS $100,000** 4 hours $250
SHOW $100,000** End of Show $125
SHOW ECONOMY (5-coin min.) $3,000 End of Show $65
SHOW GOLD (U.S. Gold only-10-coin min.) $3,000 End of Show $45
SHOW REHOLDER None** End of Show $12

Originally Posted by irv

I disagree. There is no way a TPG should be charging more to grade a card just because it is worth more. Why should they benefit from your good fortune?

Imo, they should just be glad you chose them as the TPG of choice and not someone else. They also receive free advertising, which, of course, equals more sales, more $$$, when these cards come up for auction.

To me, it's like if you happened upon a $1000 dollar card that you got for a $100, then the next guys says, I will give you $150 because you only paid $100 for it yourself.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Leon

It has been done for years.

Go get a coin graded by PCGS and this is their top tier..[B]$250 + 1% of value ..A 2 million dollar coin would be $20,250 to grade....

I hear you, Leon, and I know that is the way it is, and maybe they couldn't stay in business if they didn't do that, but that aside, it makes no sense to me, as I assume they don't do anything more special with a more valuable card than they do with a lesser one.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by irv

I assume they don't do anything more special with a more valuable card than they do with a lesser one.

Well they sure as hell don't look harder for signs of restoration...

[irv]

Originally Posted by aquarian sports cards

well they sure as hell don't look harder for signs of restoration...

lol.

[orly57]

Sgc is about a 45 minute drive from my house. They are great guys and give fantastic customer service. The owner is accessible and friendly. They are consistent (even if I don't always agree with the standards, at least they follow them). And finally, their holders are so much nicer. As an investor, psa gets more money (for now anyway), but as a collector, I like looking at my cards, and their holders really make them pop. Look at these two similar Cobb's side by side. Can anyone even attempt to argue that it looks better in a psa holder???

[BobC]

[QUOTE=Leon;1634787]It has been done for years.

Go get a coin graded by PCGS and this is their top tier..$250 + 1% of value ..A 2 million dollar coin would be $20,250 to grade....


Leon, I'm not picking on you personally but, just because something has been done a certain way for years doesn't make it right, or mean that it should be continued.

Been a CPA my entire adult life and the only real thing a CPA does, that no one else can, is give their opinion about someone's financial information. The operative word is "opinion", which is all it ever is or can be. These financial statement "opinions" are done so owners/others know where they stand as far as the financial state of their businesses and affairs but, they are also extremely critical when people go to buy or sell companies in determining values and price for such transactions. Pretty much what a TPG does when they give an opinion on a card's grade so the owner knows what shape it is in, and can also use that opinion to assist in determining the value of it for sale.

As a CPA, I am bound by professional ethics and rules to act in a completely independent and ethical manner. I am strictly PROHIBITED from doing anything as a CPA on a contingency basis, which is exactly what giving an opinion on a card, and then charging someone for that opinion based not on the actual work performed but, the perceived value of the card, is! The reason a CPA is not allowed to provide a financial opinion based on a contingent fee is because if they did, they would no longer be considered "independent" of the people/company they were doing the work for in the first place. In other words, my "opinion" would be considered tainted due to my not being independent and the "opinion" would be deemed worthless.

The only reason we haven't held these TPG companies to similar standards is not their fault, it is the collecting community's fault in not demanding it of them.

BobC

[Leon]

I wasn't defending the practice and I agree with you. I was only pointing out it has been being done for years. I am guessing CU has a few lawyers on retainer so I doubt it's illegal and I agree it seems like a conflict of interest to me too.

[QUOTE=BobC;1634834]

Originally Posted by Leon

It has been done for years.

Go get a coin graded by PCGS and this is their top tier..$250 + 1% of value ..A 2 million dollar coin would be $20,250 to grade....


Leon, I'm not picking on you personally but, just because something has been done a certain way for years doesn't make it right, or mean that it should be continued.

Been a CPA my entire adult life and the only real thing a CPA does, that no one else can, is give their opinion about someone's financial information. The operative word is "opinion", which is all it ever is or can be. These financial statement "opinions" are done so owners/others know where they stand as far as the financial state of their businesses and affairs but, they are also extremely critical when people go to buy or sell companies in determining values and price for such transactions. Pretty much what a TPG does when they give an opinion on a card's grade so the owner knows what shape it is in, and can also use that opinion to assist in determining the value of it for sale.

As a CPA, I am bound by professional ethics and rules to act in a completely independent and ethical manner. I am strictly PROHIBITED from doing anything as a CPA on a contingency basis, which is exactly what giving an opinion on a card, and then charging someone for that opinion based not on the actual work performed but, the perceived value of the card, is! The reason a CPA is not allowed to provide a financial opinion based on a contingent fee is because if they did, they would no longer be considered "independent" of the people/company they were doing the work for in the first place. In other words, my "opinion" would be considered tainted due to my not being independent and the "opinion" would be deemed worthless.

The only reason we haven't held these TPG companies to similar standards is not their fault, it is the collecting community's fault in not demanding it of them.

BobC

[oldjudge]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe SGC guarantees the grade on their card. The potential liability from grading a very valuable card is much higher than the potential liability from grading a $25 card. That, and the cost of insuring the card while in their possession is also higher. I'm sure this explains at least part of SGCs cost structure.

[glchen]

Right, the rationale between charging more for a higher declared value is that the TPG's guarantee the authenticity of the card and the grade. (I know folks will argue about the WWG Dimaggio since it looks like PSA isn't backing off the 7, but let's not get into that here.) Therefore, if the TPG is incorrect, they have to pay for the difference in the value of the card between the correct and incorrect grades or entire value if the card were not authentic. You can think of this as a kind of "insurance," so if the TPG has a higher liability on the card, it would only be fair that they would charge more for that. For example, I believe SGC may have had to pay out due to incorrectly authenticating a few D350-3 cards a couple of years ago including a Ruth (Link) which could have cost them tens of thousands of dollars. (As a result of this, I believe SGC is now no longer putting many stamped back variations on the flip.) Therefore, it seems justified to me that a TPG take higher fees for a 10K card than a $10 card due to these liability issues. In addition for higher dollar cards, I believe that the TPG does spend more time with the card. I remember on the PSA forum, in one thread (Link), SGC did not certify the grade for the card because it would be very valuable with that grade, so they wanted another grader to confirm the grade on that card before they allowed the grade to pop. And that grader was on vacation for that week, so the submitter would need to wait a little longer to receive the their card back even though they paid for a 2 day service level. So it is both greater liability and greater attention to the more valuable cards that factors into the higher service fees.

I just wanted to add that Beckett actually does not charge a different service fee for the declared value of the card. They only charge different fees based upon turnaround time. Only PSA and SGC charge different fees based upon declared values. So you can say it can be a business decision by the TPG also.

[botn]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe SGC guarantees the grade on their card. The potential liability from grading a very valuable card is much higher than the potential liability from grading a $25 card. That, and the cost of insuring the card while in their possession is also higher. I'm sure this explains at least part of SGCs cost structure.

Both PSA and SGC have a guarantee on their grades however neither company buys back as many cards as they should however SGC is probably better at honoring their guarantee. I know they cannot possibly be worse than PSA in this regard. Anyway, if the graders are doing their job then there should be no reason to have to offer a guarantee on their opinions.

[ngnichols]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

There is a guy that is active in the hobby who had a 1970 Topps Nolan Ryan bump from a PSA 9 to a PSA 10. A $36,000 increase at the time simply because PSA rendered a different and more favorable opinion. When he got the email or call that they were going to charge his credit card more because the value of the card was higher than what service level it was submitted under you really think the first thing that crossed his mind is man I am sucker. You have to be kidding with this statement.

I don't have any cards in this price range but I promise you this that if I ever send in a card and get contacted by PSA saying I owe them more money, the first thing out of my mouth is going to be Woooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

That right there is a joke in-itself. They not only admitted to not correctly grading the card the first time, but double-dipped on him grading fee wise. Did the card magically get better during it's time away from PSA? C'mon.

The value of PSA cards are vastly over-inflated and are not even remotely superior in quality to anyone else's grading. The main reasons you have the demand you have is their set registry, they are a publicly traded company, and they do coins. Unfortunately none of those things actually has a direct correlation to my cards being graded in a more accurate manner or being of a better quality than another grade from another company. It's a case by case basis and if I am a true collector (I'm not) then I'd want to individually inspect any card I'm buying before I buy it no matter what holder or grade is on it. I wouldn't just blindly buy something in a PSA holder just because.

[irv]

Originally Posted by ngnichols

That right there is a joke in-itself. They not only admitted to not correctly grading the card the first time, but double-dipped on him grading fee wise. Did the card magically get better during it's time away from PSA? C'mon.

The value of PSA cards are vastly over-inflated and are not even remotely superior in quality to anyone else's grading. The main reasons you have the demand you have is their set registry, they are a publicly traded company, and they do coins. Unfortunately none of those things actually has a direct correlation to my cards being graded in a more accurate manner or being of a better quality than another grade from another company. It's a case by case basis and if I am a true collector (I'm not) then I'd want to individually inspect any card I'm buying before I buy it no matter what holder or grade is on it. I wouldn't just blindly buy something in a PSA holder just because.

The worse one, that I have heard of, was a member on here who resubmitted a PSA 4 that came back a 7!

I could, maybe, understand a 1 grade bump, but a 3 grade bump is something that should never happen, imo.

As someone told me once on here, PSA really means, Please Submit Again.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by irv

The worse one, that I have heard of, was a member on here who resubmitted a PSA 4 that came back a 7!

I could, maybe, understand a 1 grade bump, but a 3 grade bump is something that should never happen, imo.

As someone told me once on here, PSA really means, Please Submit Again.

I submitted a 1961 Fleer Bob Cousy that went from a '4' to a '7'. Im sure you are referring to someone else though, as not too many people know about mine. In all honesty, the '7' was the correct grade - it was not a '4' originally. I had it graded, and knew the card looked WAYYYYYY better than a '4'.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

There is a guy that is active in the hobby who had a 1970 Topps Nolan Ryan bump from a PSA 9 to a PSA 10. A $36,000 increase at the time simply because PSA rendered a different and more favorable opinion. When he got the email or call that they were going to charge his credit card more because the value of the card was higher than what service level it was submitted under you really think the first thing that crossed his mind is man I am sucker. You have to be kidding with this statement.

I don't have any cards in this price range but I promise you this that if I ever send in a card and get contacted by PSA saying I owe them more money, the first thing out of my mouth is going to be Woooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

Everybody in the hobby will turn a blind eye to this because so many chase grades and because - hey, we can be the beneficiary as well - but ultimately the situation you just described is a text book definition of conflict of interest.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Section103

Everybody in the hobby will turn a blind eye to this because so many chase grades and because - hey, we can be the beneficiary as well - but ultimately the situation you just described is a text book definition of conflict of interest.

Please elaborate. The person I am referencing is just a collector who was fortunate enough to buy a card they felt was under graded and paid money to have PSA look at it again. It worked out in this case. There are plenty of cards that get sent in and returned with the money kept.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Please elaborate. The person I am referencing is just a collector who was fortunate enough to buy a card they felt was under graded and paid money to have PSA look at it again. It worked out in this case. There are plenty of cards that get sent in and returned with the money kept.

Its quite simple. PSA graded a previous 9 as currently 10. As such, they gained financially by being able to charge more than if it had stayed a 9. They had clear, direct financial incentive to increase the grade and benefitted monetarily because of it. The grade may or may not have been warranted - but it matters not in the least. The conflict of interest is there.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Section103

Its quite simple. PSA graded a previous 9 as currently 10. As such, they gained financially by being able to charge more than if it had stayed a 9. They had clear, direct financial incentive to increase the grade and benefitted monetarily because of it. The grade may or may not have been warranted - but it matters not in the least. The conflict of interest is there.

Agreed!! Even more so in the fact, that if you were to cover up the flips, I doubt very seriously you can spot out a '9' vs a '10'.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Agreed!! Even more so in the fact, that if you were to cover up the flips, I doubt very seriously you can spot out a '9' vs a '10'.

And this is where the grading industry starts to stink. We're talking minuscule details that lead to a card being a 10 instead of a 9, and vice versa. You can't tell me those minuscule details warrant the $$$ asked of the customer, even if the card being a 10 jumps the value of it astronomically.

I will say this, though. If they are combining turn-around time with value, it ultimately makes sense to charge more. As previously stated by others in this thread, there is more risk in handling a more expensive card. However, I think the ball is dropped from a customer service/integrity stand point when A) the customer is asked to pay up front, and B) when a card has a 2-3 grade increase, the customer is asked to pay more. Regarding "A", what person in their right mind would pay someone up front for a service? I wouldn't even recommend that if you're working with a family member, let alone a stranger. In regards to "B", I think a system should be developed to have the customer provide their grade assumption of each card. If the card comes back with a 1-2 grade difference, they should not be asked to pay more. But if there's an obnoxious attempt to screw over the company, yeah, pay more. Forgive me if such a system is already in place, as I have never submitted a card for grading, just my thoughts.