PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[Rookiemonster]

Can somelist all the high dollar PSA graded cards the should not have been put in a holder?

Mastero wangner

Pwcc DiMaggio

What else is out there ?

[bobbyw8469]

There was once a newspaper clipping of Nolan Ryan that someone cut out of a Sporting News and submitted as a card. Yes..you heard me right....A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING!!! Not sure the year of anything like that, but this person submitted three or so of them, they all got graded, and all brought big money. They included it into the master set.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

There was once a newspaper clipping of Nolan Ryan that someone cut out of a Sporting News and submitted as a card. Yes..you heard me right....A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING!!! Not sure the year of anything like that, but this person submitted three or so of them, they all got graded, and all brought big money. They included it into the master set.

Lets see the listing on the PSA registry.


Also as far as PSA having to do research when grading a card to see if the 'same' card had marks or whatever and perhaps cleaned. This is impractical unless they previously held the card in hand. They cant assume there was toning or other issues unless really see it. Scanners can show different things and what may look like a line on a card, may be on the holder etc..

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Lets see the listing on the PSA registry.


Also as far as PSA having to do research when grading a card to see if the 'same' card had marks or whatever and perhaps cleaned. This is impractical unless they previously held the card in hand. They cant assume there was toning or other issues unless really see it. Scanners can show different things and what may look like a line on a card, may be on the holder etc..

You can research it yourself. I'm busy. Here's the card (cough cough).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-The-Spo...-/201012634337

[Rookiemonster]

Right Robert I remember those now ! I thought becket was grading cuts for a while though . But maybe if we can put a list together of all the "know" major grading errors it will hold more weight then " hey look at this card psa" ( whiny little girl voice must be used with the last quotations).

Then we could even put a gross before and after price of theses errors.



Disclaimer:
All puns intended at all times

[Rookiemonster]

Noting good about this thread just sharing it because someone asked . http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/v...n-pickups.html

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Noting good about this thread just sharing it because someone asked . http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/v...n-pickups.html

LOL

Another forum even hates him:

"What one of the JPs went to jail? The thread on Net54 would also be a lot better if the 2 idiots(David James and Jake Lieberman) never posted in it. "

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/v...pickups-2.html

That has to go down in history some where.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Can somelist all the high dollar PSA graded cards the should not have been put in a holder?

Mastero wangner

Pwcc DiMaggio

What else is out there ?

May be quite a list.

[bobbyw8469]

Im telling you...that newspaper clipping takes the cake!! Maybe they should start grading that little vinyl record that has ball player images too!

[BeanTown]

I think it was mentioned in an earlier post that Brent gave the card to Joe Orlando to have special handling of the card. I think it's common sense that large customers of PSA have a direct line to Joe Orlando for special handling. The question is why would PSA turn a blind eye on accurately grading (yes I know subjective) on a high valued card and how many favors are being done on a yearly basis. I'm sure the the big boy submitters who get the special handling done from Joe are taking care of their personal cards or a special consignor.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I think it was mentioned in an earlier post that Brent gave the card to Joe Orlando to have special handling of the card. I think it's common sense that large customers of PSA have a direct line to Joe Orlando for special handling. The question is why would PSA turn a blind eye on accurately grading (yes I know subjective) on a high valued card and how many favors are being done on a yearly basis. I'm sure the the big boy submitters who get the special handling done from Joe are taking care of their personal cards or a special consignor.

Im sure auction houses are more flexible in disclosing flaws in certain cards from big consignors versus the everyday guy.

If you have a 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 8 and only with a microscope you maybe can detect a small small micro wrinkle. How many auction houses would disclose that? As Peter says, if its not material, why not disclose it? I think auction houses would say that only if its material, they will disclose it.

Now for other cards, dont you think with some consignors, auction houses will disclose (small timers like me) that small small wrinkle but for others they wont....thats how it goes..

Id also like to hear from any member on this board that consigned a card and noticed that an auction house listed your card but failed to disclose some flaw. How many of you contacted the auction house to tell them about the flaw and to be sure to put it in the description. Afterall, if its not that big of a deal, why not disclose it...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Can somelist all the high dollar PSA graded cards the should not have been put in a holder?

Mastero wangner

Pwcc DiMaggio

What else is out there ?

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

Right ! Good ones plus all the others Greg uncovered which I'm sure there must be more of .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Right ! Good ones plus all the others Greg uncovered which I'm sure there must be more of .

I've seen countless high end cards I thought were trimmed, but none with any particular notoriety.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Right ! Good ones plus all the others Greg uncovered which I'm sure there must be more of .

These made it to the market but eventually were taken off.
http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=27012#more-27012

[Rookiemonster]

Wow ! Great read peter . So you can get PSAs attention. I'm not saying that they really give a šhït. I think it would bring more attention to what's going on either way.


Psa Favoritism grades for bigger fish :
It seems real to me . But if it is, you would think someone by would have said hey I send in psa 5s and get 7s back almost all the time! Right ? And if this is a real thing then why not have that entity send in your cards for you ? For a cost of course.

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

[Whodunit]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Whodunit

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

[Whodunit]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

Excellent clarification. It seems that the ones that you may be referring to are akin to or either the "new money" that came into the hobby during the recent booms and started buying up everything from the bottom to top end of every grade. If it had value, it didn't seem that they cared what it looked like. There were several auctions that I saw "go" and when the final hammer dropped, I was like "Why?!?!?!". LOL.

[Leon]

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

[BeanTown]

I think Cortney and Brent had a very good friendship which benefited both of them for many years. Sorry, it has gone south as hate and love both use the same part of the brain.

Cortney, I have never met you, or spoke to you. All I can go off from are your postings on this one thread. I like hearing the perspective from a buyer of high money cards in "PSA" holders where you seem to buy and sell these cards like commodities. my hunch isyourreally good at what you do and it's rare you have a bad deal. You remind me of one of the Hunt brothers back in the late 70s/80s.
Upon the rare impulse I have to buy a 25k card or higher in a PSA holder, rest assured I will attempt to win it as a snipe or a late night bid. My suspicions were dead on, that some people like to buy these cards like Apple shares.

PWCC I have always supported with positive post in recent years. Sorry you had a relationship go south from a large consignor. However, everything happens for a reason and I'm sure other future consigners will pick up the slack on the consignment front. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I think PWCC runs a professional operation and I'm very impressed with their market dominance in Ebay. I have spoke to Brent before both on the phone and in person at the National. It's safe to say I like him and support him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Betsy has returned emails to me when I was in communication with them and she was very professional and courteous as well. I won 8 cards from them two weeks ago and I won a card from them 2 days ago so needless to say I will still be a customer of theirs.


I think at this point this thread has become a soapbox thread with Cortney and his way of outing Brent for how he feels. As much as I like reality TV, maybe a new thread should start on that theme.

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

Great points Peter.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

I do agree with you. The grading companies do help reduce the risk of getting an altered card. Just way too much faith is put into the "flip" on high end cards.