Those M114's - When Are We Going To Talk About Them?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

That first Mantle is incredible as he is in uniform #6 dating the image to 1951! Awesome! I believe that image is shared with an incredibly rare Japanese card of Mantle from 1953 (Yamakatsu). I would love to find this M114 for my collection now that I know about it! Thanks for sharing!

And then they spell his name wrong on the later one...

[h2oya311]

Does anyone have a Mays?? I'd love to see one!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Does anyone have a Mays?? I'd love to see one!

Ask and ye shall receive...

[h2oya311]

Thanks Doug! I expected him to look "younger" in the image since it was purportedly available beginning in 1951.

I'll have to see if there are others I haven't ever seen before. Great stuff!!

[dstudeba]

Sorry I am a little slow to the party. Here is the printing plate for that Mantle error.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

Sorry I am a little slow to the party. Here is the printing plate for that Mantle error.

Nice.

Did you get that from Henry Yee?

Doug



PS - technically, it would be an uncorrected error (assuming there is no correction lurking out there...)

[dstudeba]

No, did Yee have some? I got it from the collection of a janitor in their Washington D.C. office.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

No, did Yee have some? I got it from the collection of a janitor in their Washington D.C. office.

Oh, wow.

Yee auctioned some a couple years ago, I though one was that Mantle.

What other amazing items did the janitor have?

[dstudeba]

I haven't gone through it recently. I have quite a few printing plates, some layout pages for the magazine, advertising items, M114s, and negatives off the top of my head.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

I haven't gone through it recently. I have quite a few printing plates, some layout pages for the magazine, advertising items, M114s, and negatives off the top of my head.

Very cool, but for me it's all about the m114s, especially if they are ones we haven't seen, yet.

Doug

[slidekellyslide]

I don't have any M114s, but I do have some M113s

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't have any M114s, but I do have some M113s

Those are great Dan, thanx for posting.

Here is a different Cobb m113

Doug

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Those are great Dan, thanx for posting.

Here is a different Cobb m113

Doug

Whoa! Never seen that one. Your collection of these posters is incredible!

[jim]

hi Doug, here is the NYY from your wish list. someday i will learn how to take better pictures.

1915 NYY (1280x794).jpg

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jim

hi Doug, here is the NYY from your wish list. someday i will learn how to take better pictures.

THAT is a nice one!

[BruceinGa]

All very nice!!

[doug.goodman]

This one is beat up, but still nice...

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

This one is beat up, but still nice...

Condition aside that is awesome!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Condition aside that is awesome!

Thanx, that one might be my favorite.

[uniship]

anybody here have any signed examples to share?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by uniship

anybody here have any signed examples to share?

Nope, not me.

[BruceinGa]

Nor I.
I just received my Itoya Art Profolio and just finished loading it. Now for the index. I'll probably arrange them in chronological order. Looks as if I have the cart before the horse.

[akleinb611]

Okay, I've been gone for a few days (work has been making me nuts, but it's better than the alternative), but it's clear that there are more M114 fans out there than I realized. Thanks to Doug for keeping this going. Just to keep things going further, here are a couple of scans. The first is of that M113 I alluded to earlier, picturing Vic Saier, who does not appear on any known checklist. The second is a third Ty Cobb - in addition to the M113 (already pictured) and the 1941 version (showing him about to bunt, the most common version), this one is a "Washington DC" version, undoubtedly part of the large 1957 issue. And no, it also doesn't appear on any checklist.

[rajah424]

Very interesting read and great info. I was not aware of these issues and just checked Ebay to get an idea of pricing. There is a Wagner that looks brand new. Were these printed on special stock? Seems like these would be easy to duplicate and you would want to have these in hand to verify if they are original.

Again some great poses and they look great framed.

[akleinb611]

Also, in response to that earlier posting, I do have a few signed examples from this set. Nothing spectacular or rare, but I'll post what I have, hopefully by tomorrow.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

Okay, I've been gone for a few days (work has been making me nuts, but it's better than the alternative), but it's clear that there are more M114 fans out there than I realized. Thanks to Doug for keeping this going. Just to keep things going further, here are a couple of scans. The first is of that M113 I alluded to earlier, picturing Vic Saier, who does not appear on any known checklist. The second is a third Ty Cobb - in addition to the M113 (already pictured) and the 1941 version (showing him about to bunt, the most common version), this one is a "Washington DC" version, undoubtedly part of the large 1957 issue. And no, it also doesn't appear on any checklist.

I love that Saier.

[akleinb611]

As promised, here are images of most of the signed M114's that I have.

Nothing rare or astounding, but a nice little collection. I may have a few more that need excavation, and additionally, I have a large number of autographed M114 IMAGES. By that I mean that about twelve years ago, I gathered all the M114's that I had that pictured living players, and made photocopies of them and sent them out. They came back signed - but technically they're not "signed M114's".

Enjoy!

PS--The Don Kolloway is a bit of a cheat, as it's actually a signed inside cover from BB Magazine. But the image is the same as his M114.

[doug.goodman]

I didn't discover m114s until after I had given up on autographs.

Those are nice Alan

[doug.goodman]

I added the 1921 Giants Team to my collection, thanx to Richard Simon via ebay.

I also found that I do have an autographed m114...

[jim]

don't know if you had seen these ones yet Doug from your list:
archer (751x1280).jpg

cheney (637x1280).jpg

scott (690x1280).jpg

[doug.goodman]

Nice ones, thanx Jim

[doug.goodman]

I picked up another Joe D a couple days ago, which gives me 11 different versions.

1 : I have a DC version, but for some reason haven't scanned it.



2-3-4 : There are three with NY on the right hand side.

The middle one is easiest to spot the difference based on the placement of his foot in relationship to the text on the right hand side.

The text on on both sides of the top one is inside the width of the picture, while on the bottom one the text is printed wider.



5-6-7-8-9-10-11 : There are seven with New York on the right hand side.

The top two have the letter J in Joseph level with the other letters, and the placement of the text on the right hand side is different.

The next four all have a "dropped J" in Joseph. The top and bottom look to have the same placement of all the text, so you might think they are the same, but note on the bottom one that the font is different. It is easiest to spot on the left hand side,the "M" in magazine is different, and the "k" in York is different.

On the other two (the 2nd and 3rd down) see how the foot is lined up with the name differently? Also the text on the right hand side of #3 goes beyond the picture.

The bottom on has a way smaller name, and see how the right hand text has different placement, with the little box to the right of York?

[hcv123]

Is there a Clemente in the set?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by hcv123

Is there a Clemente in the set?

Not that is listed in the catalog, and I have never seen one.

But, I hope there is.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I picked up another Joe D a couple days ago, which gives me 11 different versions.

1 : I have a DC version, but for some reason haven't scanned it.

Here is the DC version of Joe D. It's the only one that calls him Joe.

Doug

[jim]

the top Evers has Poster #7 at the bottom; not sure if it is also available without the #7 designation; maybe the big guns can weigh in on this. the top Chance as a Cub has Poster #4 at the bottom; same question as for the Evers. enjoy.
evers #7 (704x1280).jpg

evers-2 (727x1280).jpg

chance #4 (820x1280).jpg

chance NYG (896x1280).jpg

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jim

the top Evers has Poster #7 at the bottom; not sure if it is also available without the #7 designation; maybe the big guns can weigh in on this. the top Chance as a Cub has Poster #4 at the bottom; same question as for the Evers. enjoy.

Another home run from Jim. Thank you, sir.

I have the Evers poster #7, and haven't seen it without the #7.

I don't have the Evers #4, and haven't seen it without, either.

Doug

[Leon]

Nice info...

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I picked up another Joe D a couple days ago, which gives me 11 different versions.

1 : I have a DC version, but for some reason haven't scanned it.

2-3-4 : There are three with NY on the right hand side.

The middle one is easiest to spot the difference based on the placement of his foot in relationship to the text on the right hand side.

The text on on both sides of the top one is inside the width of the picture, while on the bottom one the text is printed wider.

5-6-7-8-9-10-11 : There are seven with New York on the right hand side.

The top two have the letter J in Joseph level with the other letters, and the placement of the text on the right hand side is different.

The next four all have a "dropped J" in Joseph. The top and bottom look to have the same placement of all the text, so you might think they are the same, but note on the bottom one that the font is different. It is easiest to spot on the left hand side,the "M" in magazine is different, and the "k" in York is different.

On the other two (the 2nd and 3rd down) see how the foot is lined up with the name differently? Also the text on the right hand side of #3 goes beyond the picture.

The bottom on has a way smaller name, and see how the right hand text has different placement, with the little box to the right of York?

[doug.goodman]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time letting this thread die...

And, I know that Jim has one that has different text at the bottom...

[jim]

found these in the archives. another 3 pieces knocked off your original list Doug!
Cobb top row, 5th from left
1911 A's (1280x751).jpg

philly AL (1280x956).jpg

1915 tigers (1280x960).jpg

[akleinb611]

I'm back! And so is this thread!

I have trouble letting things go, or so my wife tells me...

Anyway, this has been a great experience when it comes to comparing our collections, and thanks to Doug, I for one have learned a lot about the endless caption variations. I'm confident that I'll never have the budget or the focus to collect them all.

However, I'd like to steer things a little closer to what I had in mind in the first place, which is to exchange information about the set. Let's face it, there are few major sets about which so little is known. And there are lots and lots of questions.

Are there any Baseball MAGAZINE collectors/experts out there? Does anyone have any detailed knowledge about the magazine's final years, how its inventory was ultimately disposed (there was a major auction house sale a few years ago - the printing plates have already been cited). Was there an inventory of posters included in that sale? Have there been any warehouse finds? Because pioneer New York area dealer Bob Gallagher was selling M114's from a two foot high stack on his table at shows in the late Seventies, and I don't think he purchased them one at a time.

Other issues I'd like people to join in on: set oddities. Ken Keltner is listed as having had posters issued in 1939 and 1947. I've only seen the one relatively common batting pose. Any other versions lurking out there?

Not long ago, someone got hold of a 1928 Jimmie Foxx printed in green rather than the usual sepia. It looked like the real thing. Anyone else have off-color premiums? (you're free to insert your own jokes here)...

Finally, here's my current list of posters that do not appear on the official list. Please, by all means, feel free to add to them:

M113: 1-4) Ty Cobb, Johnny Evers, Frank Chance, Walter Johnson - each seems to exist in two poses, and the official list has only one each.
5) Vic Saier - not listed anywhere
6) Death Valley Scott - also not listed, although I've seen a few around.

M114: 1) Mickey Cochrane (Tigers) - probably 1935. Only version on the list is from 1925, obviously showing him with the A's
2) Rudolph York (Tigers, batting) - there's a catching pose from 1938 and a dugout pose from 1946, both listing him as "Rudy." My guess for "Rudolph" is 1942.
3) Dizzy Dean (Cubs) - probably 1938
4) Joe Gordon (NY) - second pose, shown early in this thread. 1942?
5) Bob Feller (Washington DC caption) - probably 1957
6) Ty Cobb (batting cage, Washington DC) - shown in an earlier post of mine, probably 1957
7) Mickey Mantle - two poses have been shown in this thread, only one is on the list

Happy hunting.

Alan Kleinberger

[Estwd]

Hi Dave - I just purchased a Ted. It has a New York address on it. Does that mean it was printed in 1939? Also,were there different images used for the 1939 vs 1949 versions?

Thanks for your help!

Evan

Originally Posted by Harford20

Alan,
Thanks for the thread, and yes, your article is the GO-TO knowledge (I use it frequently). I have about 15 different M113 and about 40 different M114 in my collection, mostly HoF players. I would reiterate two comments from Alan's work that are really worse than he states:

First, as noted in Alan's article and with Doug's presentation of the Aaron, those post-1953 M114 are far tougher than any others. The Aaron I have (just as the one Doug posted) took me >5 YEARS to find, and that is searching auctions and eBay on a minimum of 2-3x/week basis. I really wonder what the actual print run of these photos were.

Second, as an avid Ted Williams, I have almost been "hoarding" both the 1939 and 1949 versions of Ted, with about 10 of the 1939 and 8 of the 1949. Also what I note here is that the "Washington D.C." address of the 1950 and beyond M114s are also much rarer than I expected. As I have 2 of the "1949 versions" of Ted with the Washington D.C. address, I presume that these were actually done in the early 1950's, so I have always wondered how much the dates are TRUE, or are many of the M114s like the corresponding Exhibits, and have a "range" of actual printing dates?

Just a few points.

Dave

[Estwd]

Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Ted Williams is a perfect illustration of what makes this set so maddening.

There are two different Ted poses (that I know of).

With this set, everything is "that we know of", because there isn't really a way to be sure that there isn't another different one.

Speaking just for myself, when I make a statement on this issue, it is based on what I know, or think I know, and I will have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. So, with Ted, when I say there are two different poses, and somebody has a third pose PLEASE post a picture, AND sell it to me. Or, maybe we can trade?

Below are the two Ted poses, I call the one with the stadium background pose #1, and the one on the black background pose #2. My next post will explain how there are seven different Ted Williams posters...

[lumberjack]

Alan,
The auction you are speaking of took place in New York City over two days in September of 1996. Christie's East (I don't believe there has been an "East" for some time), handled the auction. Once in a while, a catalog will turn up on eBay. They are a trip.

The auction was a big deal; the New York Times did a article a week before the sale. This was good publicity for the auction house, but I don't believe they considered this stuff to be classy material. There were about 17 thousand photos in the auction.

Bill Mastro was the big spender on the first day, buying Conlon lots and lots packed with HOFers. He may have spent in the vicinity of 40 thousand dollars. Mr. Mastro was a smart guy and may have had buyers for this stuff when he walked on to the auction floor. There were, maybe, two other big dealers who picked up a disproportionate number of lots. I can think of only one or two private collectors who may have made an imprint.

There had been the Culver sale of Bain photo about 4 years prior to this auction. Sotheby's handled that auction. That was the first time photographs went for big money. That was just a weird auction....


There were no M113 or M114 premiums, but there were about 20 lots of what the auction house called "cover" photos. I have at least one that wasn't mounted, but most were Conlon shots affexed to heavy board.

BB Magazine was around from 1908 into 1955. Between '55 and '65 it was sort of hit and miss.

The last publisher was Earl Noyes of Washington. D.C. His widow was in possession of the photo library until the Christie's sale. She had made attempts to sell the photos, but, until the Christie's auction, had no luck. You have to remember, photographs were of absolutely no value, if you were going to collect baseball memorabilia in those days, it would have been cards or autographs or programs. I have been told there was an asking price of $100,000, which would have constituted a real gamble. Who knows?

Here's the punch line: about three weeks after Christie's hauled out the 17 thousand photos, a pipe flooded the apartment where the pictures had been stored.
lumberjack

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Estwd

Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

I'm happy that this thread is back in action...

I do not know, and I'm not sure if it's possible to know which years many of these issues were printed.

Doug

[akleinb611]

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

[Estwd]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

Very helpful, thanks!

Evan

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

[doug.goodman]

In the spirit of the multiple holidays during the next 10 days, here are the multiple versions of the Archer m113. Among other differences, note the placement of the copyright symbol both under the edge of the picture and to the left of the edge.

Doug "yes, I may be slightly nuts, but different IS different" Goodman

ps - I have fixed my numbering to reflect my agreement with Alan regarding the Williams pictures chronology.

[doug.goodman]

And here are two versions of the O'Toole m113.

Same thing with the copyright placement as the Archer.

Also, note how the second line "The $25,000 Pitcher" isn't as wide in relation to the first line "Marty O'Toole" on the lower scan, only reaching from the "R" in Marty to between the second and third "O"s in O'Toole.

[doug.goodman]

Here are two versions of the Jim Scott m113