(E121) Stars of Base Ball Pack-This Package Contains Twenty Pictures..In Appreciation

[danmckee]

Hi Scotty! Glad to see you are doing well. Dan

[Leon]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I have a feeling this little mystery pack is going to either answer a few questions or beg to ask a few more?

Can someone please tell me where Stengel is listed in E121? I am probably missing him somewhere? I should mention I see him listed with Holsum Bread, Herpolsheimers (I think I might have owned it at one time) but don't see him in American Caramel lists?

[brianp-beme]

Stengel is not in either E121 set (or all the series of 80 variations). Davenport is also not part of the E121 sets, although it might have been a recent series of 80 discovery (curse that memory...it is sometimes only able to make bank shots nowadays).

Great Pickup!

Brian

[brianp-beme]

An additional note...Davenport is also an interesting card as it is not seen in the W575 set.

Brian

[sb1]

These players seem to parallel either the Holsum or Herposheimer's checklist.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I have a feeling this little mystery pack is going to either answer a few questions or beg to ask a few more?

Can someone please tell me where Stengel is listed in E121? I am probably missing him somewhere? I should mention I see him listed with Holsum Bread, Herpolsheimers (I think I might have owned it at one time) but don't see him in American Caramel lists?

Leon

Very nice. Thanks for sharing.

Stengel is in the W575 series. Are they blank backed?

thanks

Bob

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Leon

Very nice. Thanks for sharing.

Stengel is in the W575 series. Are they blank backed?

thanks

Bob

Hi Bob
Yes, blank back. I have personally designated them as "M-Unc" for now....as WD Boyce sent these out most likely to promote his publications... also, I guess this might get into a debate about W575s being handcut? Or, what is a W575?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_D._Boyce

.

[rhettyeakley]

Great pickup!

W575-1 has always been a "catch-all" designation that comprises several different sets that are tough to nearly impossible to distinguish. Most from my experience have been factory cut (or blank backed E121 cards) but they were also distributed in sheets either as point of sale items or were the advertising sheets that were later cut down and those are obviously hand cut. We need to stop thinking of W575-1 as hand cut cards as they normally are not BUT we think of them as such simply because of the W-designation & PSA always grades them with that designation.

Of the cards that I have cataloged in the W575-1 set, you have no new additions to the known checklist (at least to me). The three "key" cards in your group are the Stengel (batting), the Davenport, & the Jacobson (with position as "R.F." and not the regular "C.F." that was made in the E121 set. The Stengel and Davenport were subjects/images that were dropped before the first version of E121 Series of 80 was made (at least no examples have been found with the American Caramel backs...yet --this family of sets is the most complicated ever with the exception of the Old Judge series)

These cards can likely be dated to about the same time as the D327 Holsum Type 2//H-Unc Herpolsheimer//Queen City//Shotwell cards were being produced but before the E121 Series of 80 first printing was made. I still will have to compare the Type 2 Holsum's, Herp's, & other issues I have seen to these examples to see if there are any other changes to the positions, teams, etc. in a little more depth.

Of the "exclusive cards" like the Stengel, Davenport, and Jacobson cards Leon has in this lot, I have copies of the following that are probably from this same promotion/time frame w/ blank backs...

Dave Davenport
Duffy Lewis (NY Americans)
Ray Morgan
Zeb Terry (kneeling)
Carl Weilman
Lawton Witt


I have seen the following from this promotion (but do not own)...

Art Fletcher (glove outstretched)
John Henry (catching-front view)
Wm C. Jacobson (R.F.)
Charles Stengel (Batting)

[rhettyeakley]

When I said that there are several different sets that are all considered part of the "Blank Back" W575-1 set I am specifically speaking of all the following being grouped together in what amounts to a mass of confusion...
1.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 80 cards)
2.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 120 cards)--hard to tell the diff in a scan but the card stock is very different between the 80 & 120 series--obvious in hand, 120 series is much thinner
3.) D383 Koester's Bread
4.) W501 Type 2 (same checklist as regular W501, grainy photos, thin stock, hand cut top and bottom borders--true "strip cards")
6.) Henry Johnson Confectioners (essentially a stamped back version of #1 above)
7.) Henry Keating Candy Co. (again, essentially a stamped version of #1--like Henry Johnson)
8.) Service Candy Co/Henry Johnson Type 2 w/ blue/green back stamps (see #6 & 7)
9.) This "new" series of cards distributed in 4 sets of 20 (once removed from the little envelopes it will be tough to distinguish from #1 above and may just be easier to group those together minus the "dropped" or "exclusive" cards.)

[Leon]

Thanks Rhett. I (and 2 others) appreciate it . I agree, with a mix mash of those sets below these cards can definitely be found. Guessing 1920?

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

When I said that there are several different sets that are all considered part of the "Blank Back" W575-1 set I am specifically speaking of all the following being grouped together in what amounts to a mass of confusion...
1.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 80 cards)
2.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 120 cards)--hard to tell the diff in a scan but the card stock is very different between the 80 & 120 series--obvious in hand, 120 series is much thinner
3.) D383 Koester's Bread
4.) W501 Type 2 (same checklist as regular W501, grainy photos, thin stock, hand cut top and bottom borders--true "strip cards")
6.) Henry Johnson Confectioners (essentially a stamped back version of #1 above)
7.) Henry Keating Candy Co. (again, essentially a stamped version of #1--like Henry Johnson)
8.) Service Candy Co/Henry Johnson Type 2 w/ blue/green back stamps (see #6 & 7)
9.) This "new" series of cards distributed in 4 sets of 20 (once removed from the little envelopes it will be tough to distinguish from #1 above and my just be easier to group those together minus the "dropped" or "exclusive" cards.)

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

When I said that there are several different sets that are all considered part of the "Blank Back" W575-1 set I am specifically speaking of all the following being grouped together in what amounts to a mass of confusion...
1.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 80 cards)
2.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 120 cards)--hard to tell the diff in a scan but the card stock is very different between the 80 & 120 series--obvious in hand, 120 series is much thinner
3.) D383 Koester's Bread
4.) W501 Type 2 (same checklist as regular W501, grainy photos, thin stock, hand cut top and bottom borders--true "strip cards")
6.) Henry Johnson Confectioners (essentially a stamped back version of #1 above)
7.) Henry Keating Candy Co. (again, essentially a stamped version of #1--like Henry Johnson)
8.) Service Candy Co/Henry Johnson Type 2 w/ blue/green back stamps (see #6 & 7)
9.) This "new" series of cards distributed in 4 sets of 20 (once removed from the little envelopes it will be tough to distinguish from #1 above and may just be easier to group those together minus the "dropped" or "exclusive" cards.)

I have many examples in my Elmer Miller collection. Always looking for more. :-)