OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[bcbgcbrcb]

Vlad should be a first ballot HOF'er.

[bravos4evr]

Of course this also means I don't find batting average(or RBI for that matter) to be worthless stats, or only having worth within context. To me that's a false narrative.

the thing is that stats are either valuable or not valuable regardless of your opinion. Please explain, in as much detail as possible, why batting avg and RBI's are important stats for explaining player production.

I will retort when you are done.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Vlad should be a first ballot HOF'er.

Agree 100%

[nat]

Adding no relievers at all would set a better standard, what with them pitching far fewer innings than starting pitchers.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Vlad should be a first ballot HOF'er.

I'm not 100% he's a HOF'er at all. His numbers are in the borderline of inclusion.

29th in career RF fWAR (below Berkman, luis Gonzales)

23rd in career RF wRC+ (below Reggie Smith , Sheffield and Larry Walker)

50th in career RF OBP

14th in career RF ISO (isolated power)

12th in career RF home runs


idk, he's a top 30 right fielder of all time, but is that hall of fame worthy?

[JasonD08]

Vlad is not a HOFer.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Vlad is not a HOFer.

Vlad's first 10 full seasons:
950 Runs, 1781 Hits, 337 HR, 1051 RBI, .325 Avg Top 3 RF. Hit .300+ every year

Miggy's first 10 seasons:
961 Runs, 1802 Hits, 321 HR, 1123 RBI, .318 Avg Below Average 3B / 1B. Hit under .300 3x's

Would anyone argue that Miggy isn't a first ballot HOFer?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Vlad's first 9 full seasons:
950 Runs, 1781 Hits, 337 HR, 1051 RBI, .325 Avg

Miggy's first 9 seasons:
961 Runs, 1802 Hits, 321 HR, 1123 RBI, .318 Avg

Would anyone argue that Miggy isn't a first ballot HOFer?

Those old outdated stats mean nothing. You need the new cool ones. You know the ones were they use hypothetical and theoretical in the explanation of how they got those stats.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Vlad's first 10 full seasons:
950 Runs, 1781 Hits, 337 HR, 1051 RBI, .325 Avg Top 3 RF. Hit .300+ every year

Miggy's first 10 seasons:
961 Runs, 1802 Hits, 321 HR, 1123 RBI, .318 Avg Below Average 3B / 1B. Hit under .300 3x's

Would anyone argue that Miggy isn't a first ballot HOFer?

Originally Posted by bnorth

Those old outdated stats mean nothing. You need the new cool ones. You know the ones were they use hypothetical and theoretical in the explanation of how they got those stats.

Vlad first ten seasons: (10th during that period)

48.6 fWAR

144 wRC+ (100 is avg)

.405 wOBA

.381 OBP

.584 SLG



Miggy first ten seasons (3rd over that period)

52.7 fWAR

155 wRC+

.411 wOBA

.403 OBP

.573 SLG


first ten seasons they do compare pretty well, but their ENSUING seasons look like this:

Vlad (2007-11):

5.9 fWAR

120 wRC+

.361 wOBA

.354 OBP

.490 SLG


Miggy (2013-16):

21.8 fWAR

164 wRC+

.412 wOBA

.409 OBP

.565 SLG



Miggy has been on an entirely different level after about his 3rd or 4th season (he's dragged down a bit by his early years as he was so young when he came into MLB) Vlad is a good player, a borderline player, but his decline was pretty fast and his defense wasn't good enough to make up for his bat (and injuries)


saber stats are not hypothetical, they use real data and more data than stuff like batting average (for instance wRC+ takes into account the parks played in, league played in, the type of hit accrued....etc )

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Vlad first ten seasons: (10th during that period)

48.6 fWAR

144 wRC+ (100 is avg)

.405 wOBA

.381 OBP

.584 SLG



Miggy first ten seasons (3rd over that period)

52.7 fWAR

155 wRC+

.411 wOBA

.403 OBP

.573 SLG


first ten seasons they do compare pretty well, but their ENSUING seasons look like this:

Vlad (2007-11):

5.9 fWAR

120 wRC+

.361 wOBA

.354 OBP

.490 SLG


Miggy (2013-16):

21.8 fWAR

164 wRC+

.412 wOBA

.409 OBP

.565 SLG



Miggy has been on an entirely different level after about his 3rd or 4th season (he's dragged down a bit by his early years as he was so young when he came into MLB) Vlad is a good player, a borderline player, but his decline was pretty fast and his defense wasn't good enough to make up for his bat (and injuries)


saber stats are not hypothetical, they use real data and more data than stuff like batting average (for instance wRC+ takes into account the parks played in, league played in, the type of hit accrued....etc )

No, they are hypothetical. Someone makes up a model, plugs in actual data and comes up with a number. They can't prove that number means anything.

If you want to claim otherwise, provide me with a mathematical proof that those stats mean what you claim they do. It is one person's opinion, that is all.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Vlad is a good player, a borderline player, but his decline was pretty fast and his defense wasn't good enough to make up for his bat (and injuries)

Gonna have to disagree on his defense. I don't look at sabermetrics or anything else, so please excuse me if the "numbers" prove otherwise. There wasn't a person on this planet that would try to go from 2nd to 3rd when hit to Vladdy out in RF. I think if you look up the definition of "cannon" in the dictionary, it has a picture of Vlad! Honestly, do yourself a favor and google "vladimir guerrero cannon".

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Vlad's first 10 full seasons:
950 Runs, 1781 Hits, 337 HR, 1051 RBI, .325 Avg Top 3 RF. Hit .300+ every year

Miggy's first 10 seasons:
961 Runs, 1802 Hits, 321 HR, 1123 RBI, .318 Avg Below Average 3B / 1B. Hit under .300 3x's

Would anyone argue that Miggy isn't a first ballot HOFer?

I know there is issues with WAR, but if you look at the simple numbers from BLACK INK, which is a score based off being a league leader (no hypothetical). Than you would see that Miggy has been more dominant during his playing days than Vlad.

Miggy - 43. Ranked 34th all time.
Vlad - 6. Ranked 373rd all time.

I do believe, though, Vlad would be a fine HOF because even though he didn't lead the league as often, he was in the top 10 plenty of times. Even scoring a higher gray ink than Griffey.

[nat]

Here's a good place to start: http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pri...inear-weights/

You don't need to worry about wOBA in the above link, the run expectancy tables are the important part. They are what is at the heart of WAR.

[Louieman]

Of course looking at the sabremetrics is essential to evaluating whether someone is a HOFer or not. But I think just as importantly you have to simply ask yourself, especially if you were witness to the career of the player, "Is this guy a HOFer and was he a dominant player in his time?" Vladimir Guerrero completely passes that test in my book. And to add on, you have to give a little bonus to the guy because he carved his own little niche into the approach of being a great ballplayer. A bare-bones, raw, quirky approach. I'm unhappy he didn't get first ballot. But hopefully next year is his year.

[Fred]

Raines deserves to be in the HOF. He was the second best lead-off hitter of his era and that's saying a lot considering Rickey was (and will arguably probably always be) the best lead-off hitter, ever.

Making a case for closers for the HOF is difficult. Most people will probably agree that Mariano Rivera is a first ballot shoe-in, I think so (and I hate the Yankees - but who can hate Mariano and Jeter, that'd be tough).

Hoffy should have been voted in on this past ballot (second ballot). I figure if people are going to mention dominance, then the K/9 rate should be a huge consideration.

Hoffy's K-rate of 9.4K/9 is much better than Mariano Rivera's rate of 8.2K/9. Does that mean I'm indicating Hoffy was a better closer than Mariano - HELL NO. But if people are going to bring dominance and pitching into the mix, then K's should be a huge consideration. If Hoffman was going to be elected based on his humility, humbleness and genuine incredible character, then he would have been voted in on the first ballot before the 5 years passed by. That guy is "Class", personified. And he was a great closer and a pitcher who was incredible in high leverage situations.