Raines, Bagwell and IRod get the call

[jimjim]

I feel bad for Rafael Palmeiro. Hopefully he'll make it from the Veterans Committee. Now that steroid users are getting close to getting in then he should be in too. And that doesn't take into account Rickey Henderson, Mike Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez, all questionable steroid users.

[Topps206]

I'm not going to watch Pudge's speech. I'll just watch Raines and Bagwell.

I can't really get hung up on Hoffman and Vlad missing out. They both belong, but they'll get that 75% next year.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by jimjim

I feel bad for Rafael Palmeiro. Hopefully he'll make it from the Veterans Committee. Now that steroid users are getting close to getting in then he should be in too. And that doesn't take into account Rickey Henderson, Mike Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez, all questionable steroid users.

I'm always amazed!

While I guess blatantly lying to Congress is akin to making your hooker pay, you should never 'feel bad' for a millionaire who once won a Gold Glove as a Designated Hitter!


Your sympathies would be far more appropriate for those who weren't elected to the Hall while they were alive like Ron Santo and those who still have no been recognized like Minnie Minoso.


.

[Topps206]

The way I see it, baseball honors excellence and longevity at other positions. I see no reason why closer should be different.

At least Hoffman isn't lost in the shuffle like I feared. He is knocking on the door.

[cardsfan73]

I am really happy Raines finally made it in! No problems with either Pudge or Bagwell going in either.

I am sure Vlad gets in next year!

Scott

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Topps206

The way I see it, baseball honors excellence and longevity at other positions. I see no reason why closer should be different.

At least Hoffman isn't lost in the shuffle like I feared. He is knocking on the door.

the thing is that relievers just don't provide that much value unless they are the elite of the elite (and even then a guy like Mariano Rivera, with his career, was less productive than an above avg starter with no HOF hopes like say Tim Hudson).

Closer has been a thing for a little under 50 years, and there are 5 guys in the HOF who were mainly relief pitchers. I think that's about right. Hoffman, Rivera and Wagner are all worthy guys, so if that jumps to 8.... yeah that feels right, 1 or 2 a decade give or take.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

the thing is that relievers just don't provide that much value unless they are the elite of the elite (and even then a guy like Mariano Rivera, with his career, was less productive than an above avg starter with no HOF hopes like say Tim Hudson).

Closer has been a thing for a little under 50 years, and there are 5 guys in the HOF who were mainly relief pitchers. I think that's about right. Hoffman, Rivera and Wagner are all worthy guys, so if that jumps to 8.... yeah that feels right, 1 or 2 a decade give or take.

Interesting that despite five 20-win seasons, Hunter averaged 16-12 over a 162 game season, and Hudson with one 20-win season, averaged 16-9. I don't consider Hunter to be HOF-worthy either, but their stats have some similarities. Their ERA's are 3.49 for Hudson and 3.26 for Hunter - not that much difference, and higher ERA's are more tolerated these days. Plus, many of you give players a bump for longevity (the Phil Niekro factor), so that would give Hudson an edge over Hunter.

[packs]

Hudson nearly won 100 more games than he lost too. I think the only pitchers to have a 100 win / loss differential who are not in the HOF are Mussina and Pettitte.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

Hudson nearly won 100 more games than he lost too. I think the only pitchers to have a 100 win / loss differential who are not in the HOF are Mussina and Pettitte.

Ron Guidry averaged 17-9 with a 3.29 ERA and 175 K's/162 games.

But he didn't have Phil Niekro's stellar stat of longevity. Add 6 really crap years (not as crappy as his last one) to the end of his career and he makes the HOF.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Interesting that despite five 20-win seasons, Hunter averaged 16-12 over a 162 game season, and Hudson with one 20-win season, averaged 16-9. I don't consider Hunter to be HOF-worthy either, but their stats have some similarities. Their ERA's are 3.49 for Hudson and 3.26 for Hunter - not that much difference, and higher ERA's are more tolerated these days. Plus, many of you give players a bump for longevity (the Phil Niekro factor), so that would give Hudson an edge over Hunter.

Your example kinda shows why pitcher wins are a lousy gauge of production as they are so linked to the quality of a player's team. Hudson was a worse pitcher than Hunter (tho not by a lot)but because both played on good teams they gathered a lot of wins. (Though it can be said that Catfish Hunter is one of those 'on the cusp" players in the HOF)

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Your example kinda shows why pitcher wins are a lousy gauge of production as they are so linked to the quality of a player's team. Hudson was a worse pitcher than Hunter (tho not by a lot)but because both played on good teams they gathered a lot of wins. (Though it can be said that Catfish Hunter is one of those 'on the cusp" players in the HOF)

I don't think Hudson was worse. In my opinion, there are more non-HOF-worthy pitchers in the HOF than any other position.

I love arguing about the HOF - HOF minimalists like me have the luxury of knowing that all of our players are in, whereas guys on the other end of the spectrum are disappointed. It was really rough listening to Twins and Cubs fans complain 10-15 years ago about being overlooked, as those two teams have had more not-quite-great players than any others.