new HOF "impact/era" ballot

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Does Mark McGwire make the HOF as a candidate on the new "impact/era" ballot recently introduced? Will all essentially be forgiven?

Tell us what you think!

Best wishes,

Larry

I tend to think he won't, at least not for awhile. Bonds and Clemens will probably be the only known roid guys who get in any time soon, and they only because they were HOF'ers regardless if they retired at age 35 or juiced and put up their best seasons as they did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemens, in his last four seasons in Boston when he should have been in his absolute prime (age 30-33), went 40-39 with a god awful ERA. This wasn't just a guy who had an off year. He had completely lost his dominance. I don't think you will find many Red Sox fans who believe his remarkable turnaround from that point is due to anything except PEDs.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemens, in his last four seasons in Boston when he should have been in his absolute prime (age 30-33), went 40-39 with a god awful ERA. This wasn't just a guy who had an off year. He had completely lost his dominance. I don't think you will find many Red Sox fans who believe his remarkable turnaround from that point is due to anything except PEDs.

I think the argument would be that he had 3 Cy Youngs, a 2nd and 3rd and a MVP Award before he started doping in Toronto. Even though he only had 192 wins, he had an ERA+ of 144 and a WAR of 81. That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think the argument would be that he had 3 Cy Youngs, a 2nd and 3rd and a MVP Award before he started doping in Toronto. Even though he only had 192 wins, he had an ERA+ of 144 and a WAR of 81. That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

What year are you assuming Bonds started?

[HRBAKER]

That's precisely the thing Peter, we don't.
They forfeited all favorable conjecture IMO as well.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That's precisely the thing Peter, we don't.
They forfeited all favorable conjecture IMO as well.

+1
The argument that they'd be HOFers regardless is based purely on speculation, since nobody knows when they began using. Seems steroids became rampant in the 80s with McGwire but everyone seems to assume Bonds and Clemens began in mid- to-late 90s?

And as to the comment about these players never admitting they used, that's exactly what McGwire did when he began coaching. So since he was mentioned in the OP, no, I don't think he should ever get in. Without power he was below average in almost every facet of the game, and his power stats are tarnished.

To the original question about the impact the new committee will have though, I unfortunately believe the new system was developed specifically to admit players from the PED era. It's no coincidence the dividing line for the modern players starts at 1988, nor that Big Mac was included on the first ballot under the new system.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought Bonds' girlfriend who ratted him out says he started using in response to the McGwire/Sosa season which was 1998. And I agree, up to that point the only player who might have had an argument that he was better was Griffey, and I think Bonds wins that argument. But, according to the GF, he was jealous of all the media attention on the home runs, and figured with the same PEDs he could do the same or better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think the argument would be that he had 3 Cy Youngs, a 2nd and 3rd and a MVP Award before he started doping in Toronto. Even though he only had 192 wins, he had an ERA+ of 144 and a WAR of 81. That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

And it should have been 4 Cy Youngs. 1990 he was 21-6 1.93, and they give it to Bob Welch whose ERA was as I recall a full run higher.

[hysell]

Ok, I saw a show with Willie McCovey on it & he doesn"t back B.BONDS like W.MAYS does, say ,"he has never seen a drug/pill make a Baseball player?" I don"t care if your Superman or the Hulk,if you cant play or even hit the ball,how good can you be?Here is the fact in this sport, your a real good player if you fail 70% of the time?So if so easy to do?WHY are you or me not playing MLB baseball & you can put those great {NOT} HOFer voters on this LONGGGG list, also in the HOF?It"s a sport,these guys give up there bodys to play these sports?HOW many steroids & drugs are in our food ,right now? Do you think a turkey can reach 25 to 30 pounds in just under a years time?PLEASE,Robert.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hysell

Ok, I saw a show with Willie McCovey on it & he doesn"t back B.BONDS like W.MAYS does, say ,"he has never seen a drug/pill make a Baseball player?" I don"t care if your Superman or the Hulk,if you cant play or even hit the ball,how good can you be?Here is the fact in this sport, your a real good player if you fail 70% of the time?So if so easy to do?WHY are you or me not playing MLB baseball & you can put those great {NOT} HOFer voters on this LONGGGG list, also in the HOF?It"s a sport,these guys give up there bodys to play these sports?HOW many steroids & drugs are in our food ,right now? Do you think a turkey can reach 25 to 30 pounds in just under a years time?PLEASE,Robert.

Your turkey info is way off. We have a turkey facility here and it is 75 days give or take 2 or 3 from hatch to a 15 lb turkey in the bag ready to cook. That # blew my mind.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by hysell

Ok, I saw a show with Willie McCovey on it & he doesn"t back B.BONDS like W.MAYS does, say ,"he has never seen a drug/pill make a Baseball player?" I don"t care if your Superman or the Hulk,if you cant play or even hit the ball,how good can you be?Here is the fact in this sport, your a real good player if you fail 70% of the time?So if so easy to do?WHY are you or me not playing MLB baseball & you can put those great {NOT} HOFer voters on this LONGGGG list, also in the HOF?It"s a sport,these guys give up there bodys to play these sports?HOW many steroids & drugs are in our food ,right now? Do you think a turkey can reach 25 to 30 pounds in just under a years time?PLEASE,Robert.

just because you and Mr Mays are bad at science doesn't mean the rest of us are. It is a scientific fact that PED's improve performance due to their ability to increase recovery rates.

[nebboy]

I'm on Bonds side - go ahead and say what you want!!!!!!!
I watched him as a rookie and early years in Pittsburgh and I could always see him as a great player. On the personal side he's a GOOD father nothing to do with baseball but means something to me. I enjoyed many, many games he played and saw greatness. Ego and Following Willy Mays example never did a thing for him or with the press. But the press can keep their words and stories some where up their *#%s (I'm tied of them thinking we should agree with that dribbling.) He played the game at profound levels just when we the people needed it. (((( and we sucked it up)))) we all watched every minute.
He needs and has a place in the hall!

Go ahead and rip me but I'd vote for him...
My names John Hannsen and I willing to say what is Un - politically correct.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemens, in his last four seasons in Boston when he should have been in his absolute prime (age 30-33), went 40-39 with a god awful ERA. This wasn't just a guy who had an off year. He had completely lost his dominance. I don't think you will find many Red Sox fans who believe his remarkable turnaround from that point is due to anything except PEDs.

His last 4 seasons in Boston he was 8th in MLB in fWAR ,29th in ERA with 3.77 and 16th in MLB in FIP with 3.69, he was still a really good pitcher. Tho, it's fairly obvious that around 96-97 he began PED's because from age 34-41 he was one of the 3 or 4 best pitchers in baseball which just doesn't happen .Player's don't have two peaks to their careers.

That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

wut? Most evidence points to Bonds starting ,at the earliest, around 1996 (statistically the big change appears around 1998/1999) but giving you the benefit of the doubt of 1996, between 1986-1996 Bonds had posted 81.8 WAR, 334 HR, 380 SB, a slash line of .288/.404/.548 , following a normal decline Bonds was going to be a 500 HR club member and post over 100 career WAR ,still making him a first ballot HOF type.

I condemn his PED use as much as anyone, but he was easily the best player of his generation and an easy HOF'er before using (which, makes it even more pathetic) but is why he and Clemens will get voted in either this year or next.