N173 & Goodwin Album Certificate Discussion – A New Variation?

[Joe_G.]

Yet another new coupon has surfaced and it is a beauty dating to 1888. The new coupon, below, is the first I've seen that appears to be directed to a specific geographic area. As you can see, the coupon is directed to Goodwin's west coast agents, Mr. Mau, Sadler & Company, complete with a San Francisco address if you wish to order an album. The coupon is very similar to the more generic 1888 coupon, both advertising the two albums available in 1888 with a 75 certificate requirement. This coupon may have been packaged in a Gypsy Queen pack (popular on west coast) with either an N162 or, perhaps, an 1888 California League GQ.

Here are the four 1888 coupons known to me (Floral Album coupon does have an upside down back):

Here are the three 1889 coupons known to me:

I'm sure there are more to discover, would still like to find an 1888 example that mentions baseball cabinets.

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Yet another new coupon has surfaced and it is a beauty dating to 1888. The new coupon, below, is the first I've seen that appears to be directed to a specific geographic area. As you can see, the coupon is directed to Goodwin's west coast agents, Mr. Mau, Sadler & Company, complete with a San Francisco address if you wish to order an album. The coupon is very similar to the more generic 1888 coupon, both advertising the two albums available in 1888 with a 75 certificate requirement. This coupon may have been packaged in a Gypsy Queen pack (popular on west coast) with either an N162 or, perhaps, an 1888 California League GQ.

Awesome, Joe! Love seeing unknown Goodwin stuff almost 130 years after the fact!

[tedzan]

Cannot let this great thread disappear off the front page....so, it's time for a friendly bump.


TED Z
.

[Joe_G.]

I may be the only one with interest here but thought I'd bump this old thread with a new find. At this point I'm posting inserts outside of the N173 and album redemptions. I recently came across the following insert on eBay and I'm trying to pin down likely date of issue.

I believe it is early and have tentatively placed it at top of the list in chronological order as follows:

Here is a closer look at the Old Judge portraits found on the inserts.

I've chosen to place it as earliest as it is blank backed (like other early inserts) and the Old Judge portrait is perhaps most similar to the earliest portraits I've been able to locate (read on). The portrait found on packs of Old Judge smoking tobacco and cigarette packs didn't change much over time but seems the new insert is most similar to the July 1878 example below. If it were distributed at this early date it would have been in paper packs (before Goodwin migrated to slide & shell boxes in late 1886). I've also looked at export packs but they match what is shown below.

I believe this was issued shortly after Goodwin & Co. began production of the Old Judge brand (purchased rights to the name in April 1877, patented the rice paper preparation on March 5th 1878). Perhaps this insert was placed in the earliest packs of cigarettes to ease smoker conscious on the dangers of paper wrapped cigarettes ("all tobacco" cigarettes were believed to be safer at this time but paper was cheaper).

Anyone have any thoughts on dating this insert?

[1880nonsports]

you know of course I'm interested in this so that would make at least three people. I saw and likely was bidding at least a place bid I think. I wasn't sure if it was cut from some larger paper something and it wasn't Ginter motivating. I did capture a picture :-)

I just wrote a really long response but deleted it! No clarity and likely not much clarity to follow. I guess I'm still unsure it was an insert.

IF it is an insert I believe it would have followed closely after the "special" process was implemented although I'm unsure any pre 1880 paper packages carried any sort of insert? If a manufacturer wanted to say something then they did it on the package with a seal or sticker type something or accompanied it with trade cards and the like.

The paper image itself was simply done by a different artist than the coupons based on the concept of a judge. The depiction doesn't give much clue as to age when comparing against the box tops or the coupons.

It would be interesting to unearth the original source for the icon if in fact it was a person as in the Ginter brand but I think not. There might have been an initial image used in their first copyright filing which naturally could evolve over time.

I think I ended up where I started. Guess I could have deleted all this

[Joe_G.]

Thanks Henry, I took the time to post in the first place hoping to get a response such as yours. I agree that it is unlikely a paper pack would have an insert although this latest advertisement is very thin paper and is somewhat creased throughout (all of which could have easily happened at any point over the last 130+ years).

Other brands like SF Hess Creole underwent several changes in the female portrait on the pack over time and I was trying to study the Old Judge in the same way but led to a dead end.

All good points on your side, we may never be able to solve this one but I'll keep looking for clues.

All the Best!

[Joe_G.]

An update for you and I Henry . . .

I've been able to study two early Old Judge paper packs with tax stamps that date to August 1st, 1884 and March 1st, 1886. They both have a notice on the underside of the flap which reads "EMBOSSED RICE PAPER READ NOTICE INSIDE" which seemingly makes reference to the insert I previously posted. It would now appear that the "rice paper" insert was placed inside the paper packs, likely discontinued with the migration to slide and shell boxes when the "Red Band and Flap" would migrate from a band attached to the wrapper to merely printed on the slide. The "Red Band and Flap" is often advertised in early Goodwin adverts, it is neat how it held the bottom closed, sealed the seam on the side, and doubled as a flap on top.