Hall of Fame Announces "Old Timers" Ballot

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I think he ignored the obvious PED use for far too long to ever go in IMO.

We ALL did, Dan. And we all enjoyed the McGwire-to-Sosa-to-McGwire HR chase!

Financially, it was good for the game - though it is a good thing that it is over or, at least, not nearly so prevalent thanks in no small part to the new testing system that Selig helped put in place.


c

[earlywynnfan]

I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.

Albert Belle was a later version of Richie Allen - many parallels.


c

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.

Not because of anything that Selig did. From the cancelled World Series, to Steroids to the All Star game tie to making the All Star game count for World Series home field. His time on the job was a disaster.

Baseball has been declining in popularity over the last 25 years. Outside of the World Series, televised games are not even on the major networks anymore, but on niche cable channels. TV viewership is way down. Even with the Cubs winning the World Series, and huge game 7 viewership, average viewership was about half of what it was for the 1978 World Series and behind almost every year in the 80s and 90s. Viewership from 2008-15 was a disaster. I guess if Selig's job was to make owners money while damaging the game, he was successful, but that isn't hof worthy in my opinion.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not because of anything that Selig did. From the cancelled World Series, to Steroids to the All Star game tie to making the All Star game count for World Series home field. His time on the job was a disaster.

Baseball has been declining in popularity over the last 25 years. Outside of the World Series, televised games are not even on the major networks anymore, but on niche cable channels. TV viewership is way down. Even with the Cubs winning the World Series, and huge game 7 viewership, average viewership was about half of what it was for the 1978 World Series and behind almost every year in the 80s and 90s. Viewership from 2008-15 was a disaster. I guess if Selig's job was to make owners money while damaging the game, he was successful, but that isn't hof worthy in my opinion.

Any opinion worth having is worth voicing...bravo

[earlywynnfan]

I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?

I paid a LOT of attention to baseball in the 90's, with the Tribe finally being good. With the exception of Rick Reilly's Sosa-chasing article, virtually NOBODY was complaining. Everybody could see it, but nobody complained. How many of you guys went to games? How many took up sides and cheered for McGwire or Sosa? Or Bonds or Clemens??

For about a decade in the 2000's, the big beat writer for Cleveland's newspaper would absolutely rail against steroids. Yet I read him every day in 1998, and he never said a word!! No writers I read did. And these people were in the clubhouses, were constantly around the players. I send this guy emails commending him on his firm stance 10 years after the fact, but never got a reply.

Selig and Fehr were the point people of the steroid era, sure, but anyone in and around baseball at the time was involved. If any of us who went to games, cheered the home runs, is calling out Selig now, I say we're hypocrites.

[packs]

I really don't understand the Steinbrenner hate. Some of you guys collect Comiskey, how can you hate Steinbrenner and call him a criminal but collect Comiskey? The same goes for Tom Yawkey. The guy actively worked against integrating his team, so much so that they were the last team to integrate. He's in though, isn't he?

[bxb]

The committee votes December 5th.

Anyone know who's on the committee?

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?

For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?

One flaw in your analogy is that my wife knew what was going on, the neighbors knew, the grandparents knew, and the CHILDREN knew it was wrong. And in the end, nobody got punished!

[basesareempty]

Harold Baines


Batting average
.289

Hits
2,866

Home runs
384

Runs batted in
1,628

Solid stats and borderline HOF. Knee injuries early in his career probably cost him 3000 hits which would have gotten him in.

[Louieman]

Well I can't speak on behalf of others but my dislike for used car salesman Bud Selig has been very consistent since he started. But I was a kid in the 90s...let me sift through my mom's garage and see if I have any fingerpainting or personal narratives that conveyed the message....

[packs]

Something I think should be recognized re: Selig is how much harder he made it for regular people to attend a game as a family. Under his watch 19 publicly funded stadiums were built. It now costs an average of $77 for 2 people to attend a game. In 1993 it cost a family of 4 $91 to attend a game.

[bbcard1]

I would not be aghast if most of those guys would get in. I would not be offended if not. Davey Johnson and Pinella are sort of a Red Schoendienst type, though I think lesser, who had some accomplishments as both players and managers. Baines and Belle fit fine statistically. If your bottom measuring stick is Jim Bottomley and High Pockets Kelly, maybe there's a place for Clark...McGwire defined an era that was both glorious and tragic... I would be happy if here was not an executive in the hall. It is of no interest to me.

[basesareempty]

Edgar Martinez


Batting average
.312

Hits
2,247

Home runs
309

Runs batted in
1,261

I know over the years that people have thought Martinez should get in. If that ever happens then Baines needs to be in as well. Just saying.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by basesareempty

Edgar Martinez


Batting average
.312

Hits
2,247

Home runs
309

Runs batted in
1,261

I know over the years that people have thought Martinez should get in. If that ever happens then Baines needs to be in as well. Just saying.

I disagree. Baines, as good a player as he was, was just good peaking at very good. He played a long time and his career numbers are inflated, but do not point to any particular peak period during which he was considered elite.

I'm not a big advocate of Edgar either, but he is a noticeable step up from Baines.


-

IMO

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

What an underwhelming group. Who picks these?

Bud Selig.

Originally Posted by packs

Something I think should be recognized re: Selig is how much harder he made it for regular people to attend a game as a family. Under his watch 19 publicly funded stadiums were built. It now costs an average of $77 for 2 people to attend a game. In 1993 it cost a family of 4 $91 to attend a game.

There might be one or two other items in our society that have doubled in price over the last 23 years.

[ASpaceman]

Belle & Schuerholz.

Belle is criminally underrated.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Bud Selig.


There might be one or two other items in our society that have doubled in price over the last 23 years.

You don't see a correlation between building huge overpriced stadiums and overpriced ticket prices since the building of those stadiums? We're not talking about inflation.