What are you top 5 20th century boxing cards?

[Exhibitman]

I wouldn't put the Tyson in the top 10 cards and certainly not the top five, unless you are starting the list in 1980. As to post-1980 cards I would rank it up there as one of the top five (in date order):

1986 Panini Tyson
1986 Brown's Holyfield
1988 Panini Julio Cesar Chavez
1997 Brown's Mayweather
1999 World Boxing Magazine (Japan) Manny Pacquiao

If we push the start date back to the 1970s I think he'd probably be top 5 (though I could see an argument for one or more Ali cards displacing one or more of these guys):

1973 Panini Roberto Duran
1986 Panini Tyson
1986 Brown's Holyfield
1997 Brown's Mayweather
1999 World Boxing Magazine (Japan) Manny Pacquiao

But if we push it back beyond 1970 Tyson drops off the list of even the most significant cards of heavyweights, even if we limit it to one card per fighter:

E125 Johnson (or T229, T227, etc.)
1921 Romeo y Julieta Jack Dempsey
1935 JA Pattreiouex Sport Celebrities Joe Louis
1951 Ringside Rocky Marciano
1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay (or any of a number of other early Clay cards)

If you add in all of the other weight classes and add in multiple cards of fighters, Tyson is nowhere near the top ten.

As for comparisons with Jordan, I don't buy it. Jordan is on the short list of greatest players of all time. Tyson is not even close to Jordan-esque range even among heavyweights. The IBRO (2005) ranks the heavies as follows:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Tyson doesn't have the resume. He didn't face anything like the guys around in the 1970s; but setting aside that era as a special one, he also did squat against the best of his era. On the way up he beat a bunch of bums, blown up cruiserweights, and an elderly Larry Holmes. Then he got blasted out by Buster Douglas? He didn't face Bowe. After he did his rape time he fought bums and tomato cans before losing to Holyfield and Lewis. He wasn't anywhere near as mentally and physically tough as the prewar fighters. When he was in the deep $hit with Holyfield he melted down rather that gut it out. Dempsey and Louis would have ripped him to pieces, Johnson would have taken an easy decision from him, and Frazier and Marciano would have ruined him permanently as a fighter because they fought the same way he did but with much bigger balls; they would have humiliated him. Frankly, I don't think he was blood and guts enough to beat any of the guys above him on that list, except perhaps for Liston, who was a similarly flawed individual and might have been spooked by Tyson's shtick. That said, he was a legit HOFer and he had a puncher's chance with anyone, same as every elite heavyweight does.

[Dpeck100]

I don't profess to know a fraction of what you know about boxing or boxing cards/stickers. That said Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson. The most deadly fighter my generation has ever witnessed. Purest like you have always bashed Tyson and always will. Casual boxing fans like me and millions more are enamored with his accomplishments in the ring.

In terms of the sticker. A copy sold for $5,100 on EBAY. There aren't many boxing cards or stickers that ever have. The most famous I am aware of is the Leaf Graziano and obviously it isn't in that realm but popular none the less.

The comparison to Jordan isn't suggesting he is the necessarily the greatest of all time but more that a modern card that has a large population is the most liquid basketball card that exists. Actually the most liquid trading card that exists. There are plenty of Tyson's but because of his popularity it is still bringing great money and isn't close to as rare as some on the list.

I think a modern fighter should be featured in the top ten for sure and there is no question in my mind it should be Tyson.

[Exhibitman]

I don't have anything against Tyson, David. As I said, he was a worthy HOF selection and is a top 15 heavyweight. However, when viewed objectively, he is not a top-ten heavy for the reasons I stated. He could have been better if he'd been a better person, perhaps, but when gut-checked he was found wanting. He lost three prime years because he raped a woman and got his ass kicked by the two best fighters of his generation. He doesn't even measure up favorably in head to head battles with his elite contemporaries. That doesn't make me or the many other researchers who've ranked him "purists", just objective analysts. My favorite of the modern era is Lennox Lewis: I think he was better than Tyson but I wouldn't rank him with Ali or Dempsey or Johnson.

Now as far as the cards go, again, I am trying to be objective. I don't have any stake in this list, financial or otherwise. I have the modern cards as a collector but that's about where it ends for me; I don't have multiple copies of them sitting around so I have no reason to build a market for them, and I don't want more of them so I don't have any reason to tear down a market for them. You are correct that there is a PSA 10 Tyson that allegedly sold for $5,100 last year. Was it your purchase, because I see that you posted one in another thread about Tyson cards that you started last December? If not, do you know if it was an actual sale? Because from where I am sitting it looks very much like a Probstein/PWCC fake sale during the run-up. The prior sale was $1324.99; the next reported sales were $2650, $1927, and $2125. All strong sales to be sure, but not even close to top ten all time. For example, just taking Heritage's past results:

1948 Leaf Graziano: $29,875.00
E125 Jeffries: $19,120.00
T226 Johnson: $19,120.00
N167 Smith: $8,962.50
N386 Sullivan: $6,572.50
E125 Johnson: $5,975.00

I also know of multiple private sales in excess of $5,000 for individual cards and many more above $2,500.

I also don't operate on the paradigm that there 'should' be a modern fighter on the list. That is not a logical argument. It is a form of logical fallacy called a moralistic fallacy. Plus I am old enough to consider Ali a modern fighter

It is a nice and significant card, no doubt about that--I said it is one of the top five cards of the last 35 years--but viewed objectively and in context of all boxing cards I don't think it is the stuff dreams are made of.

[Dpeck100]

I purchased my copy from a member on CU a few years ago. The Tyson that sold was indeed sold. I know the person who sent it to PWCC.

Actually the Probstein "fake sale" wasn't so fake. The same person who sold the Italian copy through PWCC bought that UK back from Rick's consignor for $5,600. The auction was clearly shilled but a different buyer did indeed buy it and as far as I know still owns it. Recent sales have been closer to 2k for the UK back as more participants I believe realize it isn't the actual rookie.

I have a good number of the Tyson stickers so in some ways I am biased but I can tell you the reaction when people see them in person is quite strong and I think that is why so many collectors over the past few years have been snatching them up.

[wondo]

Let's get this going again. I've bougth and sold numerous "expensive" cards. That is NOT what makes a boxing card great. We are talking era, fighter, aesthetics, rarity, but not price, ..........certainly more factors. I am a Jack Johnson freak..............fascinating man and IBFHOF boxer. He has my favorite card and another which I consider THE best boxing card ever. Here is my list:

1. T218 Jack Johnson Side View (beautiful)
2. Exhibit Ezzard Charles (most intimidating)
3. 1951 Topps Ringside Joe Louis (the green)
4. T9 Turkey Red Jack Johnson (favorite)
5. 1948 Leaf Joe Louis (something pure, classic)

[Exhibitman]

This sort of noir movie lighting was common in the 40s and 50s.



Source photo:

[david_l]

I absolutely love those pics. I've been meaning to pick up a Charles exhibit card. I don't collect them but just love the photo. As Adam mentioned there's sort of a noir quality.

I grew up around Cincinnati not tremendously far from Ezzard Charles Drive. For such a sports city I think Charles' legacy has been kind of brushed aside for whatever reason. I grew up a big Cincy sports fan but only vaguely knew that Charles was some boxer. It's too bad really. The Cincinnati Cobra is definitely one of the greatest athletes affiliated with the region.