T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

[Topps206]

I'm really puzzled that people are against Sheckard. He was better at his position than Kling was at his. I honestly think Sheckard would be a far better choice than most players listed in here.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I'm really puzzled that people are against Sheckard. He was better at his position than Kling was at his. I honestly think Sheckard would be a far better choice than most players listed in here.

Sheckard is very underrated. For me he would go into the Hall Of Very Good, but he should at least be in the conversation regarding the Hall Of Fame. Sherry Magee, however, should be close to a no brainer for the HOF.

Tom C

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Sheckard is very underrated. For me he would go into the Hall Of Very Good, but he should at least be in the conversation regarding the Hall Of Fame. Sherry Magee, however, should be close to a no brainer for the HOF.

Tom C

I agree with all you say. Sheckard isn't an injustice if an omission, but I could live with his induction.

Magee? He stands the test of time. How is he not in yet? Why do we have to wait until 2020, at least?

How Magee and Bad Bill are not in when both are easily qualified is puzzling to me.

Edit: Look how long it took to induct George Davis, arguably a top five shortstop of all time! The voters don't always get it right.

[Joshchisox08]

Some others not mentioned that I completley forgot about:

Cy Seymour ??? .303 average, over 1,700 hits, and 61-56 pitching recrod
Ginger Beaumont ??? .311 average, over 1,700 hits, led the league in 1902 with .357 average
Jesse Tannehill ??? 197-111
Fred Tenney ??? 2231 hits, .294 lifetime average.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Some others not mentioned that I completley forgot about:

Cy Seymour ??? .303 average, over 1,700 hits, and 61-56 pitching recrod
Ginger Beaumont ??? .311 average, over 1,700 hits, led the league in 1902 with .357 average
Jesse Tannehill ??? 197-111
Fred Tenney ??? 2231 hits, .294 lifetime average.

Seymour was a better version of Schulte.

Beaumont had a good career, but unlike Cravath, not enough for a short one.

Tannehill is lower on the pole for pitchers.

Tenney is someone I'm surprised Frankie Frisch didn't pick.

[CMIZ5290]

We can beat this thread in the dirt (And I think we have). How about a poll with everyone getting only one player to vote on? I'll start the ball rolling with Ed Reulbach....

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

We can beat this thread in the dirt (And I think we have). How about a poll with everyone getting only one player to vote on? I'll start the ball rolling with Ed Reulbach....

I've been thinking about a poll and was going to bring up the idea earlier but you beat me to it!

I'll edit post #1 and start the list. Right now I'm undecided if we're going to vote just 1 player in.

Anyone think we would get at least 2 votes ??

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I agree with all you say. Sheckard isn't an injustice if an omission, but I could live with his induction.

Magee? He stands the test of time. How is he not in yet? Why do we have to wait until 2020, at least?

How Magee and Bad Bill are not in when both are easily qualified is puzzling to me.

Edit: Look how long it took to induct George Davis, arguably a top five shortstop of all time! The voters don't always get it right.

Magee I don't understand. He is the same as Wheat and Kelley. He should be in already.

Dahlen wasn't the defensive player that Wallace or Tinker were. Not being outstanding, just very good, both offensively and defensively doesn't necessarily mean you are a hofer. Davis was outstanding defensively. Why he didn't make it earlier makes no sense to me.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by rats60

Magee I don't understand. He is the same as Wheat and Kelley. He should be in already.

Dahlen wasn't the defensive player that Wallace or Tinker were. Not being outstanding, just very good, both offensively and defensively doesn't necessarily mean you are a hofer. Davis was outstanding defensively. Why he didn't make it earlier makes no sense to me.

I'm busy at work, so I'll respond in depth later, but don't let the fielding percentage fool you. Dahlen was a great defender.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I'm busy at work, so I'll respond in depth later, but don't let the fielding percentage fool you. Dahlen was a great defender.

Sorry, I disagree. Wagner & Davis .940. Tinker and Wallace .938. Dahlen .927. I don't put too much weight on fielding percentage, but that is too big a gap. He was marginally better getting to balls based on assists, but why? Did his pitchers throw more ground balls? We just don't know. Over a 162 game average he fielded about 3 more balls than Davis, 11 more than Wallace and 30 more than Tinker. Those really aren't enough to make up for extra errors he made.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Sorry, I disagree. Wagner & Davis .940. Tinker and Wallace .938. Dahlen .927. I don't put too much weight on fielding percentage, but that is too big a gap. He was marginally better getting to balls based on assists, but why? Did his pitchers throw more ground balls? We just don't know. Over a 162 game average he fielded about 3 more balls than Davis, 11 more than Wallace and 30 more than Tinker. Those really aren't enough to make up for extra errors he made.

Jaws ranks Dahlen as the 10th best shortstop in history, behind only Wagner, A-Rod, Ripken, G. Davis, Yount, Vaughan, Banks, O. Smith and Appling.

He is ahead of:

Alan Trammell
Derek Jeter
Barry Larkin
Bobby Wallace
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
Pee Wee Reese
Joe Sewell
Luis Aparicio
Joe Tinker
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Phil Rizzuto
Rabbit Maranville

Tom C

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by rats60

Sorry, I disagree. Wagner & Davis .940. Tinker and Wallace .938. Dahlen .927. I don't put too much weight on fielding percentage, but that is too big a gap. He was marginally better getting to balls based on assists, but why? Did his pitchers throw more ground balls? We just don't know. Over a 162 game average he fielded about 3 more balls than Davis, 11 more than Wallace and 30 more than Tinker. Those really aren't enough to make up for extra errors he made.

Here's the logical fallacy I find in your argument, and I'll spell it out for you.

Assists

Led his league in 1895, 1900, 1903

Second in 1904, 1908

Third in 1898, 1901, 1902

Fifth in 1896, 1905, 1906

8,138 fourth all time.

Defensive games at SS

Led in 1900, 1902, 1903

Third in 1895, 1906, 1907

Fourth in 1901, 1904, 1905, 1908

Fifth in 1898

2,133 total is good enough still for 12th all time.

Putouts at SS

Second in 1898

Third in 1900, 1903, 1908

Fourth in 1895, 1896, 1901, 1902

Fifth in 1904, 1905

Factor- 4,856 for second all time.

Assists as SS

Led in 1895, 1900, 1903, 1904

Second in 1902, 1908

Third in 1898

Fourth in 1895, 1905, 1906

Fifth in 1907

Total - 7,505 for fourth all time

Double plays turned as SS

Led in 1898, 1904, 1908

Second in 1895, 1903

Third in 1896, 1900, 1901

Fifth in 1905

Total - 881 for 55th All time. Higher than Tinker.

Range Factor/9 inning as shortstop

Led in 1893, 1894, 1898, 1908

Second in 1895, 1897, 1900, 1904

Third in 1901, 1903

Fifth in 1896, 1905

Range Factor/Game as SS

Led in 1893, 1894, 1897, 1908

Second in 1895, 1896, 1898, 1900, 1904

Third in 1901

Fourth in 1903

Fifth in 1905

Total - 5.80, sixth all time, Tinker is 19th.

Tinker did lead his league in fielding percentage as a shortstop four times, Dahlen only once, but also finished second six more times.

To be fair, Dahlen did commit more errors, but he played more than a decade before Tinker debuted and is still top 100 in games played, plus much of those errors were before the turn of the century and he made fewer later on in his career.

John McGraw called trading for Dahlen the best he ever made.

Dahlen not only should be in the HOF, he was a much better defender than you give him credit for.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by rats60

Sorry, I disagree. Wagner & Davis .940. Tinker and Wallace .938. Dahlen .927. I don't put too much weight on fielding percentage, but that is too big a gap. He was marginally better getting to balls based on assists, but why? Did his pitchers throw more ground balls? We just don't know. Over a 162 game average he fielded about 3 more balls than Davis, 11 more than Wallace and 30 more than Tinker. Those really aren't enough to make up for extra errors he made.

fielding % is a worthless and terrible stat because it tells us nothing about range. a statue who could not move but made perfect plays on balls hit right to it would have a 1.000 fielding % but would be far worse at preventing hits than a player with great range who made 20 errors a year.

if the statue field 100 balls perfectly he makes 100 outs with 0 errors

player B with the great range might make 200 outs and 20 errors, obviously you prefer the latter


for example: since 2012 JJ Hardy leads among SS on fielding % with .987 and Andrelton Simmons is 4th with a .982 , HOWEVER, in defensive runs saved Hardy is 3rd with 58 a massive 68 behind Simmons. In UZR/150 games Simmons leads with 21.7 to Hardy's 11.9 so, if you just used fielding % you would be wayyyyy off on who the best SS glove in baseball is. Simmons is over twice as good at creating outs than Hardy, yet .005 worse in fielding % (because fielding % tells us nothing about the range if a player ,their arm, nor their ability to generate outs, it just tells us how good they did when they got to the ball)