Thoughts on Kaepernick & the national anthem

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does Kaepernick not standing make us more or less uncomfortable than this?

About the same to me.....both are out of place and both should have/had punitive ramifications for the participants.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One little known fact about the Smith and Carlos ceremony is that the white silver medalist also protested in his own way, he (like the other two) was wearing the badge of an Olympic human rights committee, and apparently was ostracized in Australia for the act.

[packs]

If you support freedom in all forms then how can you be against someone who chooses to exert that freedom?

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by packs

If you support freedom in all forms then how can you be against someone who chooses to exert that freedom?

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

Is it equally ironic that other white posters seem to think they know exactly what it's like to be a minority in this country? For example, when surveyed, only 10% of Native Americans were actually offended by the name "Washington Redskins". Yet by the uproar you'd assume it would be the opposite.

And to me anyway, it's not a problem that he's allowed to exercise his freedoms, it's HOW he went about it. I think it was just plain stupid. But, hey, stupidity is in style these days.

[packs]

I don't claim to know what it's like because I don't know what it's like. I never could and I never will but I also don't pretend to have some type of understanding that I don't have.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

They dont get to be president even if they are half african american...oh woops that changed. You would think if the President of the United States was half african american during the time of attempting to create jim crow laws or other times that impacted minorities..that holding the position of POTUS could impact that more than whatever was done in our history

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

About the same to me.....both are out of place and both should have/had punitive ramifications for the participants.

Carlos and Smith were almost immediately forced to leave the Olympic Village by the same Avery Brundage who had not objected to the Heil Hitler salutes at the 1936 Olympics. They doubtless suffered a great deal of ostracism for many years afterward, although from my reading they are now looked on mostly favorably.

[Leon]

Actions have consequences. It's America. As much as I would support their (any of them) right to do what they did, I would support my right, if I were in that position, to mete out punitive consequences. We would both be within our rights. (See first sentence.)

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Carlos and Smith were almost immediately forced to leave the Olympic Village by the same Avery Brundage who had not objected to the Heil Hitler salutes at the 1936 Olympics. They doubtless suffered a great deal of ostracism for many years afterward, although from my reading they are now looked on mostly favorably.

[packs]

Leon are you at all familiar with the Tuskegee experiments? They were still being conducted when that photo was taken. There is a historical and societal history that you are ignoring when you say things like actions have consequences.

[Leon]

I double down on my comment. That being said I would have held ALL of those responsible for that experiment accountable for their actions. We have a criminal justice system.

Originally Posted by packs

Leon are you at all familiar with the Tuskegee experiments? They were still being conducted when that photo was taken. There is a historical and societal history that you are ignoring when you say things like actions have consequences.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Leon

I double down on my comment. That being said I would have held ALL of those responsible for that experiment accountable for their actions. We have a criminal justice system.

Right but they weren't held accountable at all and I would argue that they chose their subjects carefully for that very reason. Do you think that equates to an equal society?

[Leon]

The individuals authorizing those atrocities should have been held accountable, I agree 100%. However there was this..

"As part of the settlement of a class action lawsuit subsequently filed by the NAACP on behalf of study participants and their descendants, the U.S. government paid $9 million (unadjusted for inflation) and agreed to provide free medical treatment to surviving participants and to surviving family members infected as a consequence of the study."

and this is more than many injustices receive though I would have made more individuals be held accountable-

A year later on May 16, 1997, President Bill Clinton formally apologized and held a ceremony at the White House for surviving Tuskegee study participants. He said:
"What was done cannot be undone. But we can end the silence. We can stop turning our heads away. We can look at you in the eye and finally say on behalf of the American people, what the United States government did was shameful, and I am sorry ... To our African American citizens, I am sorry that your federal government orchestrated a study so clearly racist."


And bringing this full circle, I don't have a problem with any athlete expressing their views and opinions. However, I do have an issue with where and when it is done. And to those that say, well he got your attention, I say he could have gotten it elsewhere too.

Originally Posted by packs

Right but they weren't held accountable at all and I would argue that they chose their subjects carefully for that very reason. Do you think that equates to an equal society?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Leon

Actions have consequences.

With everything that is going on (and not just referring to a black/white issue), you seriously still believe that? I'd be more inclined to say that consequences and personal responsibility are the exception to the rule these days.

[Leon]

Yes.... and unfortunately you are correct.

Originally Posted by tschock

With everything that is going on (and not just referring to a black/white issue), you seriously still believe that? I'd be more inclined to say that consequences and personal responsibility are the exception to the rule these days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Actions have consequences. It's America. As much as I would support their (any of them) right to do what they did, I would support my right, if I were in that position, to mete out punitive consequences. We would both be within our rights. (See first sentence.)

And what of Rosa Parks, would you have punished her too?

[Leon]

Of course not. It's not the same. I would hope I would have been on her side concerning sitting on a bus.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And what of Rosa Parks, would you have punished her too?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Of course not. It's not the same. I would hope I would have been on her side concerning sitting on a bus.

No, it's not. She broke the law, they didn't.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Rosa Parks was protesting for racial equality. Kaepernick is protesting for...well, nothing. Huge difference!

My earlier question may have been overlooked. What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

[Leon]

Their actions are worse than hers in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, it's not. She broke the law, they didn't.