My PSA Damage Tale

[T206Collector]

The "problem" is that their brand is really in the huge volumes of cards they have already graded. It would be hard to imagine the number of epic failures that you'd need to sink that gigantic float -- for people to stop submitting, you'd need the values of the cards that have already been submitted to plummet.

Even with better customer service, and more consistent grading across the board, SGC barely made a dent. If you total the current number of "SGC" hits vs. "PSA" hits on ebay in "sports, mem, cards & fan shop" library, SGC has just over 6% of the volume of PSA. And it doesn't help that they're so "soft" on corner rounding in the pre-war card category...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The "problem" is that their brand is really in the huge volumes of cards they have already graded. It would be hard to imagine the number of epic failures that you'd need to sink that gigantic float -- for people to stop submitting, you'd need the values of the cards that have already been submitted to plummet.

Even with better customer service, and more consistent grading across the board, SGC barely made a dent. If you total the current number of "SGC" hits vs. "PSA" hits on ebay in "sports, mem, cards & fan shop" library, SGC has just over 6% of the volume of PSA. And it doesn't help that they're so "soft" on corner rounding in the pre-war card category...

+1...what would it take for many to crack their psa graded cards and resubmit...at a cost of course...to some new, better grading company? Not likely to happen imo.

[bxb]

I've had a few cards come back from PSA with damaged or bent corners. Fortunately they were low value. My sense has been that the grade is decided by person #1, and then later on down the line the card is put in the holder by person #2 who accidentally damages the card and may or may not know he did so.

[glynparson]

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not. Not sure if there offer was more than insured value or not honestly didn't read everything. I did notice a criticism in another post like this was a company coverup. The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation. For the record o do submit frequently and have not had an issue like this though I have had a card or two I believe they may have lightly damaged. I also find their customer service to be excellent over the last few years. Jackie, TaCora and Devin in my opinion all provide excellent service and have handled all my concerns or issues professionally and with a pleasing positive attitude.

[KingFisk]

I am glad to hear that others have had had positive customer experiences with PSA. I can only tell you that I did not. They did step up when I challenged what they were going to give me for reimbursement. I am not going to go into details of the negotiations there, but what they offered initially was what they claimed to be "fair market value" and it simply wasn't fair market value. We came to an agreement that I am comfortable with and that is the one positive outcome.

The reason I wanted to share this story mostly - and a few of you hit right on it - was the fact that a card that was so clearly damaged was released back into the wild with the exact same grade as it had before the damage occurred. That tells me that there is no final QC happening and that it just makes me question the system they have in place, as well as the grades of other cards that are out there. I know when I was first getting started back in collecting, I relied a lot on the grade of the card as my eye wasn't trained for the "card not the flip" aspect. But if PSA grades inherently carry a value, this is just another illustration of how that value is potentially deeply flawed. And I have nothing to gain sharing this - 99% of my collection is in PSA slabs and I want them to have a bulletproof reputation. While I am small potatoes as a collector, I've invested what to me is quite a bit of money in what I was hoping were cards that were effectively bonded, if you will, by PSA's reputation.

And yes, the nature of the damage is so baffling to me - I can not understand for the life of me how they mangled the surface like that. I suspect it had something to do with the slabbing process. That's why I asked a few times what might have happened, but got no response. Anyway - just wish I had my card back the way it was.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

I am glad to hear that others have had had positive customer experiences with PSA. I can only tell you that I did not. They did step up when I challenged what they were going to give me for reimbursement. I am not going to go into details of the negotiations there, but what they offered initially was what they claimed to be "fair market value" and it simply wasn't fair market value. We came to an agreement that I am comfortable with and that is the one positive outcome.



The reason I wanted to share this story mostly - and a few of you hit right on it - was the fact that a card that was so clearly damaged was released back into the wild with the exact same grade as it had before the damage occurred. That tells me that there is no final QC happening and that it just makes me question the system they have in place, as well as the grades of other cards that are out there. I know when I was first getting started back in collecting, I relied a lot on the grade of the card as my eye wasn't trained for the "card not the flip" aspect. But if PSA grades inherently carry a value, this is just another illustration of how that value is potentially deeply flawed. And I have nothing to gain sharing this - 99% of my collection is in PSA slabs and I want them to have a bulletproof reputation. While I am small potatoes as a collector, I've invested what to me is quite a bit of money in what I was hoping were cards that were effectively bonded, if you will, by PSA's reputation.



And yes, the nature of the damage is so baffling to me - I can not understand for the life of me how they mangled the surface like that. I suspect it had something to do with the slabbing process. That's why I asked a few times what might have happened, but got no response. Anyway - just wish I had my card back the way it was.

And that is how a "major" company slowly looses confidence in its already existing market.

No company is infallible, and no company is untouchable, so much so as that continuing to slab a card a 7 that is clearly not a 7 will only lead to questions as to the validity of their product.

Lest we forget there are already some pretty big stains on their record. If I were running that, or any, grading company, I would focus on quality control to a fault.


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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not.

I disagree. Insured value is to determine return postage. He deserved the difference between the value of a PSA 7 and a PSA 3, no matter what he insured it for. Insured value doesn't have anything to do with determining PSAs limits of liability. If he had insured the card for $100K, do you think PSA should have to pay him that?

Originally Posted by glynparson

The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation.

A lot of speculation there. If the damage would have occured in the slabbing process, wouldn't the missing piece of paper be sealed inside the slab? Low level employees equate to carelessness? Again, a lot of speculation.

[swarmee]

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

I like PSA. They've done plenty wrong on the hundreds of cards I've submitted, but those were mostly minor (misplacing cards, refusing to grade cards under the proper service level, forgetting they grade coins, and many incorrect labels), but I don't go whining to the company president.

The thing that is currently irking me about them is that for the last two months, the cheapest bulk submission for Collector's Club members is $8/card. If it stays like that for the next couple of months, I won't be renewing in November.

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

I like PSA. They've done plenty wrong on the hundreds of cards I've submitted, but those were mostly minor (misplacing cards, refusing to grade cards under the proper service level, forgetting they grade coins, and many incorrect labels), but I don't go whining to the company president.

The thing that is currently irking me about them is that for the last two months, the cheapest bulk submission for Collector's Club members is $8/card. If it stays like that for the next couple of months, I won't be renewing in November.

I had read a few places that he often takes a personal interest on stuff like this and just said it would have been nice. "No matter, just a little upsetting." I think I was pretty clear that it wasn't a big deal. That's a really spot on comparison, by the way. Microsoft and PSA. Totally equal.

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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

In your attempt at sarcasm, you've actually showed your lack of knowledge. Go search past CU threads and you'll see that many, many times Joe Orlando has made offers for customers that have problems or questions to call him directly.

[MikeGarcia]

..if this thread were posted on CU tonight , would it still be up tomorrow ?

..

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

..if this thread were posted on CU tonight , would it still be up tomorrow ?

..

Of course not...are you kidding me?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

Are you really still on win 98/ME or older?

I'm on win 7 and I can't recall a single bluescreen in the entire time we've had it - about 6 years.

Plus, MS charges for support calls unless you've got a service contract. So basically you are on your own. (There is a support forum, but I've never found it at all helpful.)

Steve B

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

... I'm on win 7 and I can't recall a single bluescreen in the entire time we've had it - about 6 years. ...

I'm guessing you don't work in IT. Trust me, the BSOD is still a thing.

[Bpm0014]

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I'm guessing you don't work in IT. Trust me, the BSOD is still a thing.

Nope, not in IT.

Compared to Win 98 which I drove to BSOD a couple times a week at least and XP which did it fairly regularly win 7 is far better. Like I said, none I can recall since we got the machine. (Can't rule out it happening and me not remembering it, but for me it's become a rare thing.)

A lot of common websites like games on FB do leak enough memory to make shutting down IE fairly often a necessity. The new machine I need to get setup I think is win 10, so that'll be interesting.

My wife does work for MS, and I've got plenty of gripes which I'm forbidden from griping about publicly. But BSOD is no longer one of them. (Apparently spouses publicly griping about the product is seriously frowned upon )

Steve B

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not. Not sure if there offer was more than insured value or not honestly didn't read everything. I did notice a criticism in another post like this was a company coverup. The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation. For the record o do submit frequently and have not had an issue like this though I have had a card or two I believe they may have lightly damaged. I also find their customer service to be excellent over the last few years. Jackie, TaCora and Devin in my opinion all provide excellent service and have handled all my concerns or issues professionally and with a pleasing positive attitude.

I agree!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not. Not sure if there offer was more than insured value or not honestly didn't read everything. I did notice a criticism in another post like this was a company coverup. The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation. For the record o do submit frequently and have not had an issue like this though I have had a card or two I believe they may have lightly damaged. I also find their customer service to be excellent over the last few years. Jackie, TaCora and Devin in my opinion all provide excellent service and have handled all my concerns or issues professionally and with a pleasing positive attitude.

I do think the problem was likely somewhere in the process, and that someone along the line just said oops and let it go through as-is.

But I can't agree on only getting the insured value from PSA. The card went to them as a 7, and they damaged it. So they should pay the difference between the received grade and the grade after damage. (This sort of thing is on peoples court all the time usually when someone totals a borrowed car or wrecks clothes while dry cleaning)
Whatever company was the carrier for shipping would be responsible for only the insured amount. And could dispute it if it seemed unreasonable. Like if I insured a modern common for a few thousand hoping it would be lost or damaged.

I'd love to hear from one of our actual lawyers about how the difference in values would be determined. In other words, is it the values at the time of the damage, values at the time the damage was pointed out (assuming it was noticed quickly and not months or years later) Or if it got as far as court the values at the time of the decision?

I'd imagine that for nearly all collectibles there would be no or almost no difference. But here because of an odd market the values changed quite a bit over a short time.

Steve B

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by steve B

I do think the problem was likely somewhere in the process, and that someone along the line just said oops and let it go through as-is.

But I can't agree on only getting the insured value from PSA. The card went to them as a 7, and they damaged it. So they should pay the difference between the received grade and the grade after damage. (This sort of thing is on peoples court all the time usually when someone totals a borrowed car or wrecks clothes while dry cleaning)
Whatever company was the carrier for shipping would be responsible for only the insured amount. And could dispute it if it seemed unreasonable. Like if I insured a modern common for a few thousand hoping it would be lost or damaged.

I'd love to hear from one of our actual lawyers about how the difference in values would be determined. In other words, is it the values at the time of the damage, values at the time the damage was pointed out (assuming it was noticed quickly and not months or years later) Or if it got as far as court the values at the time of the decision?

I'd imagine that for nearly all collectibles there would be no or almost no difference. But here because of an odd market the values changed quite a bit over a short time.

Steve B

It's not just that. It went from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. That alone increased the value substantially.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

It's not just that. It went from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. That alone increased the value substantially.

Wow!!! That's incredible!!! PSA had it go from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. What more possible good things could PSA also do?

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure it was a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was resubmitted. In fact, I'll bet it was also a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was originally slabbed, as a regular Topps issue.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Wow!!! That's incredible!!! PSA had it go from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. What more possible good things could PSA also do?

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure it was a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was resubmitted. In fact, I'll bet it was also a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was originally slabbed, as a regular Topps issue.

It was. HOWEVER, I doubt very seriously it would have attained Milton Bradley pricing without the flip labeling as such.