David Ortiz

[Touch'EmAll]

What are the thoughts on if David Ortiz can/will win the MVP award? I realize he is a DH, but he leads not just the AL but all of baseball in HR's, RBI's and Slugging Percentage, not to mention a very health Batting Average near the top.

Has anyone ever won the MVP in their final year? And what are chances he plays next year? I mean c'mon, retire with that kind of stat line, really? He is a Monster!

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

What are the thoughts on if David Ortiz can/will win the MVP award? I realize he is a DH, but he leads not just the AL but all of baseball in HR's, RBI's and Slugging Percentage, not to mention a very health Batting Average near the top.

Has anyone ever won the MVP in their final year? And what are chances he plays next year? I mean c'mon, retire with that kind of stat line, really? He is a Monster!

well, to correct a few things:

Ortiz is 5th in the AL in HR's (and 8th in MLB) with 25 (trumbo has 30)

He is 2nd in the AL and MLB in RBI's to Encarnacion (and RBI's are more reflective of the quality of the OBP of the hitters in front of you than your performance alone)

His SLG is 1st as you said (as is his very nice 175 wRC+) BUT, I have a hard time giving an MVP to someone who doesn't play defense. When guys like Trout, Donaldson and Altuve are just slightly behind your bat, but are also good baserunners and defenders I think they have the edge for MVP consideration. (Ortiz is 23rd in fWAR for example due to poor baserunning and lack of defense)


He is having a good year for sure, and might have another one or two in him. But hey if he wants to walk away on top, he should!

[Touch'EmAll]

My mistake on rankings - I just looked at top 50 players ranked by Batting Avg. (MLB website - stats - page 1 only).

[clydepepper]

Altuve's my pick!

[steve B]

I'd like to see Ortiz get the MVP, but I'm fairly certain he won't unless something crazy happens.

Not running well?! This year he's got 2 SB without being caught. Already it's the third most bases he's stolen in a season and a long way to go. He does run like a large 40 year old power hitter, and the Sox have seldom been a team big on running.

I don't really buy the "he's just a DH" argument for any player. Especially since people making that argument are usually the same ones who downplay defensive ability when considering players. (Not a specific statement about anyone here, just a general observation) Either defense matters or it doesn't.

I also take what's an odd view of the MVP. I don't see it as something that should be only about great stats and being on a winning team. So many times you see a player from the series winner picked, when there's players with similar numbers on crummy teams that get few votes. Who's more valuable the guy who has excellent stats on a team that would probably be a good team without him or the guy who is pretty much the only decent player on his team?
That's less common in baseball, and with a long season it's less likely for one good player to prop up a bad team, but in football it's pretty crazy.

Steve B

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd like to see Ortiz get the MVP, but I'm fairly certain he won't unless something crazy happens.

Not running well?! This year he's got 2 SB without being caught. Already it's the third most bases he's stolen in a season and a long way to go. He does run like a large 40 year old power hitter, and the Sox have seldom been a team big on running.

I don't really buy the "he's just a DH" argument for any player. Especially since people making that argument are usually the same ones who downplay defensive ability when considering players. (Not a specific statement about anyone here, just a general observation) Either defense matters or it doesn't.

I also take what's an odd view of the MVP. I don't see it as something that should be only about great stats and being on a winning team. So many times you see a player from the series winner picked, when there's players with similar numbers on crummy teams that get few votes. Who's more valuable the guy who has excellent stats on a team that would probably be a good team without him or the guy who is pretty much the only decent player on his team?
That's less common in baseball, and with a long season it's less likely for one good player to prop up a bad team, but in football it's pretty crazy.

Steve B

If said DH is at or near the top in WAR then yeah I can ignore defense, but 23rd????

I tend to think that the entire concept of MVP has been twisted over the years. It was supposed to mean "player who had the best season" now it means "player who had the best season ,and the best narrative ,on the team that made the playoffs" so it seems that MVP is now contingent on other people too. (which makes no sense)

[chaddurbin]

when in doubt, just default to mike trout. that's been my rule for the last 4 years.

as for ortiz, he's not even the mvp of his own team...much less the league. c'mon now. ortiz is like kyle schwarber on roid (literally and figuratively).

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

when in doubt, just default to mike trout. that's been my rule for the last 4 years.

as for ortiz, he's not even the mvp of his own team...much less the league. c'mon now. ortiz is like kyle schwarber on roid (literally and figuratively).

pretty much (though due to his team's record I expect the winner to be Donaldson or Altuve if those teams make the playoffs)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

If said DH is at or near the top in WAR then yeah I can ignore defense, but 23rd????

I tend to think that the entire concept of MVP has been twisted over the years. It was supposed to mean "player who had the best season" now it means "player who had the best season ,and the best narrative ,on the team that made the playoffs" so it seems that MVP is now contingent on other people too. (which makes no sense)

I was just reading a bit about WAR, and as I'm understanding it they count six different categories including fielding, which leaves any DH a bit short since they basically get 0 for fielding. (Maybe a bit of a toss up, some would probably lose points some would gain. )

Checking offensive WAR, he's currently 9th, at 3.7 tied with Bradley and Betts, and behind Bogaerts who is at 4.2 (Not sure just how that works, since Ortiz is ahead in most of the categories)He's ahead of anyone on the team in most of the traditional stats, usually by a lot. So realistically not in the running for MVP, but hardly a "bad" season. For someone at age 40.

All in all, it's just a really great season to enjoy watching. He's doing very well for a 40 year old guy, and is leading in a few categories for that age.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_40_bat.shtml



I get the "player with the best season" view. I don't think that can be done considering the players as isolated from the team. So much of the things a player can do are affected by the players around him. Especially in the lineup, where the presence or absence of a solid hitter in the spot following can change the approach a pitcher takes. A power hitter without at least a solid hitter behind him won't see as many good pitches, since the risk of a walk leading to a run is lower if the following hitters are weak. (Either for power or average or worse, both. ) Not that I entirely agree, the chances of a double or better aren't really all that good, even for the best hitters.

Steve B

[MacDice]

Since the BBWA doesn't rexongize the Dh as a position I wild say no.

[chaddurbin]

War is position-adjusted... So a dh is supposed to produce more than a ss... Hence why Ortiz with better stats is worse than bogaerts n mookie.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by steve B

I was just reading a bit about WAR, and as I'm understanding it they count six different categories including fielding, which leaves any DH a bit short since they basically get 0 for fielding. (Maybe a bit of a toss up, some would probably lose points some would gain. )

Checking offensive WAR, he's currently 9th, at 3.7 tied with Bradley and Betts, and behind Bogaerts who is at 4.2 (Not sure just how that works, since Ortiz is ahead in most of the categories)He's ahead of anyone on the team in most of the traditional stats, usually by a lot. So realistically not in the running for MVP, but hardly a "bad" season. For someone at age 40.

All in all, it's just a really great season to enjoy watching. He's doing very well for a 40 year old guy, and is leading in a few categories for that age.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_40_bat.shtml



I get the "player with the best season" view. I don't think that can be done considering the players as isolated from the team. So much of the things a player can do are affected by the players around him. Especially in the lineup, where the presence or absence of a solid hitter in the spot following can change the approach a pitcher takes. A power hitter without at least a solid hitter behind him won't see as many good pitches, since the risk of a walk leading to a run is lower if the following hitters are weak. (Either for power or average or worse, both. ) Not that I entirely agree, the chances of a double or better aren't really all that good, even for the best hitters.

Steve B

bolding above mine: The difference is because base running counts as part of offensive WAR. So fast guys like Betts, JBJ or Bogaerts have an edge there.

Yes WAR counts against DH's because they don't play any defense. Which makes sense as it wouldn't be fair to credit them with anything for not playing defense. Not to mention they don't have the wear and tear of playing defense either.

But yeah,Ortiz is having a good year. If I were him I'd sign another 1 year deal and stick around a bit. But there is something to be said for leaving on a good year instead of waiting to have the eventual collapse.

[Joshchisox08]

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

bolding above mine: The difference is because base running counts as part of offensive WAR. So fast guys like Betts, JBJ or Bogaerts have an edge there.

Yes WAR counts against DH's because they don't play any defense. Which makes sense as it wouldn't be fair to credit them with anything for not playing defense. Not to mention they don't have the wear and tear of playing defense either.

But yeah,Ortiz is having a good year. If I were him I'd sign another 1 year deal and stick around a bit. But there is something to be said for leaving on a good year instead of waiting to have the eventual collapse.

I'd love to have him around another year. But since he's still saying that he won't I'd be disappointed in him if he came back.

I liked Mike Schmidt, and only respected him more when he declined to play in the AS game in 89 when he'd been voted into the starting spot even though he retired earlier in the season.

Steve B

[Sean]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Has anyone ever won the MVP in their final year?

I can't recall it ever happening, but I do recall Koufax winning the Cy Young and finishing second in the MVP in his final season (1966).

I'm glad to see Papi going out on top. I've seen too many guys play beyond the point where they should have retired. Better to go out a year too soon than a year too late.

[Touch'EmAll]

Just read that Ortiz is having the best last year of career since Dave Kingman - way back. He is still being an offensive monster - last night another HR and more RBI's, a nice top ten batting average, and an outstanding slugging %.

They way he is hitting, who would you rather have at the plate? He sure would be my go to guy. I know, DH, but honestly, he gets my vote for MVP. Would be a great way to end his career.

[jhs5120]

Stats compared to the American League:
Home Runs: 8th
Slugging %: 1st
On Base %: 2nd
OPS: 1st
Batting Average: 4th
Doubles: 1st
RBI: 2nd
OPS+: 2nd
Runs Created: 4th
Adj Batting Wins: 2nd
Extra Base Hits: 2nd
Intentional Walks: 1st

[quinnsryche]

Why won't anyone mention his failed PED test? I know it was supposed to remain a secret but it is now common knowledge, yet he's treated like royalty when others like A-Rod, Clemens and Bonds are vilified (as well they should be). What's up with that?

[packs]

It's because he himself has continued to ignore the failed test so there is no baiting from the media like there was with Clemens and Arod who made it a point to deny the label.

Also, he isn't even the best player on his own team so all the MVP talk seems moot to me. Mookie Betts is clearly the best player on the Red Sox.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Why won't anyone mention his failed PED test? I know it was supposed to remain a secret but it is now common knowledge, yet he's treated like royalty when others like A-Rod, Clemens and Bonds are vilified (as well they should be). What's up with that?

he was in the Mitchell report, but was never caught up in scandals or named in those doctor's office raids and he has passed every test since the rule was instituted outlawing PED's.


ETA: and he isn't a jerk to fans or the press like Bonds or Clemens were. there's a lot to be said for being liked by the public

[packs]

I don't think that buys you a pass though. Saying I've never been caught since they started checking to see if I've been cheating doesn't erase the years you were cheating.

[bravos4evr]

not really evidence he was cheating tho... the Mitchell report names were supposed to be kept secret and so there is no test results or any data to compare to the leaked names.

If he was cheating it didn't seem to make much difference as his stats didn't drop over the last 6 years. Maybe he is on some new thing they can't detect, but he is tested a lot an hasn't failed one yet.


and like I said in my ETA , not being caught up in scandal and being a fan favorite helps.

[packs]

He did fail a test though. It wasn't just his name in a report. He failed the test administered by MLB.

Also, of dubious distinction only three other players hit more home runs later in their career than Ortiz: Rafael Palmeiro, Barry Bonds, and Sammy Sosa.

[jhs5120]

There have been hall of fame players who have cheated, used PEDs and tested positive for PEDs. It's a part of the game and isn't worth the effort to judge.

[quinnsryche]

I have nothing personally against him and I understand he is very popular as a lovable character and the whole Boston Strong thing but he was named and I would just like to see the media at least bring it up instead of giving him a free pass that I don't think others got.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

not really evidence he was cheating tho... the Mitchell report names were supposed to be kept secret and so there is no test results or any data to compare to the leaked names.

If he was cheating it didn't seem to make much difference as his stats didn't drop over the last 6 years. Maybe he is on some new thing they can't detect, but he is tested a lot an hasn't failed one yet.


and like I said in my ETA , not being caught up in scandal and being a fan favorite helps.

ARod hasn't failed drug tests. Is he clean? It is easy to beat drug tests. Cheaters always look for ways to beat the system. We know Ortiz was caught doping and got away with it. Why wouldn't he continue to dope? Maybe his stats didn't drop because he is still taking steroids.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by rats60

ARod hasn't failed drug tests. Is he clean? It is easy to beat drug tests. Cheaters always look for ways to beat the system. We know Ortiz was caught doping and got away with it. Why wouldn't he continue to dope? Maybe his stats didn't drop because he is still taking steroids.

yes A-rod failed a test and he was part of that sting where the FBI busted that lab too. (and later admitted to using anabolic roids from 2010-2012)

Papi was one of 4 names leaked in the supposedly anonymous 2003 screening and has passed every test since then. Besides, it was supposedly andro (which was legal at the time) and not roids.... but wtvr.

If you have any evidence he is currently taking PED's please present it. If you don't, well you are just creating a narrative to back up your preconceptions. If you were publishing that it would be close to libel.

[packs]

It doesn't bother you that the only players to produce similar careers are three known cheaters?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

It doesn't bother you that the only players to produce similar careers are three known cheaters?

I think Ortiz mirrored some Mannyworld 'practices' when they were teammates.

Ortiz is fan and media favorite, but...

I have always thought that the most-chronicled baseball team outside of New York City effectively 'sold their collective souls' (and their year-in and year-out status and identity as loveable losers.) by looking the other way as Championships finally were won.

I can only hope that doesn't occur in Chicago.

That's my two cents

[chaddurbin]

ortiz failed a drug test...i'm not against him being in the hall, but bonds clemens should be in first before him because they were better baseball players who also took ped. edgar martinez should be in before him also.

lastly if this great narrative he's riding gonna get him an mvp and screw trout again i'm gonna be pissed. if trout plays in bandboxes with awesome teammates like at fenway, camden, toronto, minute maid, arlington his numbers would DWARF all these guys. as is trout's number is awesome and should still theoretically net him an easy mvp all narratives aside.

[packs]

He's not even the best player on his own team though. How could anyone seriously vote for him over Betts if you're going to give it to a Boston player?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

He's not even the best player on his own team though. How could anyone seriously vote for him over Betts if you're going to give it to a Boston player?

There's a good possibility that their votes will cancel each other out...happens all the time with teammates.

Albert may actually take some of Trout's votes this year (110+ RBI). Plus, the Angels won't make the playoffs.

That may clear the way for Altuve.

.

[chaddurbin]

No one is voting for pujols. Actually with all the trout being screwed talk I think he's the favorite to win if everythjng is as status quo the last couple weeks.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

He's not even the best player on his own team though. How could anyone seriously vote for him over Betts if you're going to give it to a Boston player?

This I agree with. (though, I think that MVP should go to the best player in each league and not be based on how good or bad their 24 teammates played)

I think the MVP is Trout because he provided the most production to his team by being the best player in the AL. Putting him on any team would make them 8 games better.

[the 'stache]

Curious that Ortiz couldn't get wet in a car wash while in Minny (108 OPS + in 1,700 PAs), yet he goes to Boston, cheater central, and he's immediately an MVP candidate.

It gets on my nerves to no end that Pappi is loved because he speaks broken English, and he's oh such a sweet guy, yet Ryan Braun gets vilified because he used a cream to heal an injury, and supposedly "threw the collector" under the bus. Both broke the rules. But, the truth is, everything Braun said about Dino Laurenzi Jr in that press conference was 100% accurate. None of that changes because his test result was positive. Laurenzi Jr sat on the sample for three days. The chain of custody was broken. His implicit instructions were not followed. He should have been fired regardless of the sample's test results. But Braun's a villain because he read a statement his attorneys typed up. And 5 years later, though he's served his suspension, made restitution, met with and apologized to Laurenzi Jr, and is now up for the Roberto Clemente Award (he's always been heavily active in charity work since coming to the Majors), Braun's still booed left and right though it's clear he's a fantastic player who doesn't need steroids to destroy a baseball.

The simple fact is that Braun came up to the Majors, and was immediately a superstar. Ortiz first came up to the Bigs in 1997, and didn't show any star power at all until 2003.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am biased as a Bostonian, but even so I would pick Trout. Then Betts. I have always suspected Ortiz of using, honestly, and felt that he has been given a free pass because he is a genuinely nice, warm, accessible man and nobody wants to believe anything bad about him. I hope I am wrong.

[chaddurbin]

unless there's a change of heart from the dodgers fo or puig doing some major damage in october (i really doubt the latter having watch puig tighten up in big at bats)...i think the puig for braun trade is gonna happen in the offseason...and as a dodgers fan i'd welcome that RHB and every day LF'er....and i wish he'll take a massive amount of undetectable ped and have a big year.

[packs]

The thing about Braun is that he lied implicitly multiple times when given the opportunity to own up to what he did. He denied he cheated when he did in fact cheat. He made excuses for why being caught cheating shouldn't count, even though he cheated. He said "the truth was on his side" when he denied cheating while knowing he was lying about it. That's why people don't like him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

It doesn't bother you that the only players to produce similar careers are three known cheaters?

Ortiz is a known cheater.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Curious that Ortiz couldn't get wet in a car wash while in Minny (108 OPS + in 1,700 PAs), yet he goes to Boston, cheater central, and he's immediately an MVP candidate.

It gets on my nerves to no end that Pappi is loved because he speaks broken English, and he's oh such a sweet guy, yet Ryan Braun gets vilified because he used a cream to heal an injury, and supposedly "threw the collector" under the bus. Both broke the rules. But, the truth is, everything Braun said about Dino Laurenzi Jr in that press conference was 100% accurate. None of that changes because his test result was positive. Laurenzi Jr sat on the sample for three days. The chain of custody was broken. His implicit instructions were not followed. He should have been fired regardless of the sample's test results. But Braun's a villain because he read a statement his attorneys typed up. And 5 years later, though he's served his suspension, made restitution, met with and apologized to Laurenzi Jr, and is now up for the Roberto Clemente Award (he's always been heavily active in charity work since coming to the Majors), Braun's still booed left and right though it's clear he's a fantastic player who doesn't need steroids to destroy a baseball.

The simple fact is that Braun came up to the Majors, and was immediately a superstar. Ortiz first came up to the Bigs in 1997, and didn't show any star power at all until 2003.

From everything I've read Minn had him trying to be an entirely different sort of hitter. More of a go for singles and the opposite field type than a power hitter. Some can make that change, I figure most can't. And if you're told not to try to be a power hitter you really won't be.

18 HR in 89 games in 01 - with a pretty bad .234 average and 20 in 125 games in 02 with a passable .272 average doesn't really strike me as no power.

I do think that in some way Minnesota trying to change his hitting probably made him a better hitter in the long run.

Braun probably has gotten a bad deal. It's puzzling, but then doping stuff in all sports is puzzling.
Cycling seems to gladly welcome back those who admit it take their year or two off, or take the year or two with a plausible excuse. But totally clobber the ones who deny it even with the same plausible excuse. (Like eating meat that had BGH in it instead of organic stuff. ) And there, even when the officials are crooked the athlete is punished but the officials get nothing. Lance loses everything, which might be fair even though it's outside the current rules. but when some of the evidence is stuff like an official popping into the team tent to tell him "You didn't pass hematocrit levels, but it's ok Nike took care of it" there should be a few other people getting some punishment as well.

Ortiz tested positive for something that wasn't banned at the time, and has been fine since testing began. And that stuff can still be bought at GNC.....

A lot of the recent NFL suspensions have been from supplements that have supposedly been cleared by different regulators. Good rule of thumb, if it's not regulated by the FDA so you know that what's on the label is actually what's in it you probably should avoid it if you're in a sport.

Steve B