Any Game of Thrones Fans?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

Please tell me why we wasted so much time in Bravos with Arya? She did nothing there except train, which she was already doing with Syrio off screen. Yet we spent episode after episode watching her do it just so she could kill one person and leave.

Riverrun: talk about a waste of time. Brienne goes all the way there just to have Blackfish do the exact thing he would have done had she not even shown up. What was the purpose of those scenes? Could they not have found a way to reunite Brienne and Jamie in a way that advanced the plot?

Um, Arya was a young girl, and had trained with her "dancing master", Syrio Forel, for only a few months, if that, before Ned was murdered, and Arya was forced to flee the Capital. The instruction she received from the nameless girl did much more to advance her fighting abilities. Before this last fight, the only person Arya had ever killed was a fat kid that tried to steal Needle from her. Arya could have never killed this nameless girl based on Syrio's instruction, alone.

Why does every single element in a story have to "advance the narrative"? Can't a character just be shown learning a skill, or a craft? However, here, Arya didn't simply "learn to fight, kill a girl, and leave", as you stated. She'd started down a path to completely forego her identity as Arya Stark to be one of the Faceless. When presented with a task she felt was wrong, she demurred, and didn't poison the woman actress. That had a tremendous impact on her character arc, because had she not refused, and poisoned the woman, who would have helped her when she ultimately refused to commit another kill for the Many-Faced God, and got stabbed? She didn't know anybody else in Bravos except Jaqen, and he was the one who sent the training girl to kill Arya. Arya's mercy for that woman ended up saving her own life. Not sure how you can't see that. And, when Arya confronted Jaqen at sword point, she decided that the path she'd started down was not for her, that she was indeed a Stark, and she was going home. This is an incredible moment of self-affirmation for a young woman. She's stopped running. She's no longer a child, but a woman in control of her own destiny. Both Arya and Sansa have grown by leaps and bounds in this season. The Stark family, which was on the verge of utter collapse at the end of season five, is not only alive and well; they're on the verge of reclaiming their home, Winterfell. Should Jon and Sansa retake Winterfell, the entire family, which has been separated since season one, could reunite. Retaking Winterfell could save Rickon. Arya is returning home. Jon is alive. Sansa has escaped Ramsay Bolton. And, Uncle Benjen is with Bran; he will likely take him south to the wall, and they will be told that Jon and Sansa have returned to Winterfell. The tide could be turning in a very big way. The pieces on the chess board are moving, and the Lannisters, who have seen victory after victory, are on their heels. Cersei has just found out that she is in real trouble, because she has been counting on a trial by combat to save her from the High Sparrow. Now King Tommen, her own son, has ruled that trial by combat is antiquated, and barbaric.

And the Blackfish does the exact same thing he would have done had Brienne not showed up? And the plot wasn't advanced? Really? You, apparently, weren't paying very close attention, because Brienne's appearance at the siege has a dramatic impact on what happens next.

Before Brienne and Podrick show up, Jamie Lannister assumes control of the army, and has a formal parlay with the Blackfish. They size each other up, and the Blackfish balks at the Kingslayer's appeals to forego a battle which would cost thousands their lives. It is quite evident that there is going to be a protracted, bloody siege battle. Thousands of men loyal to the Lannisters are going to die in the retake of the Frey's keep. And, hundreds of men defending the keep will also die. Only when Brienne has shown up does Jamie Lanister try a different approach. After they speak, and Jamie tells Brienne that Oathkeeper is hers forever, only then does the possible result of this battle become clear: as she is leaving, Brienne tells Jamie that should her negotiations with Blackfish fail, she would be honor-bound to fight alongside the Blackfish, as the forces within the keep are aligned with the Starks. This means that Jamie and Brienne could meet in a fight to the death. Jamie clearly does not want this. Though he will not openly admit it, he cares very deeply for Brienne. And she cares for him as well. This is apparent to anybody paying attention when she and Podrick are slowly meandering down the river leaving the keep. Both wave farewell to each other. Jamie would be fully within his authority, and abilities, to have her captured. She is, after all, loyal to the Starks, the Lannister family's sworn enemies. But he lets her go.

Back to Jamie's decision. He has Edmure Tully brought in; they exchange some barbs, Tully questioning Jamie's goodness, and openly mocking "the word" of the Kingslayer when Jamie promises that, should the Blackfish and the soldiers inside the keep surrender by midnight, they will be allowed to leave unharmed. Jamie then tells Edmure that he will have his new bride, and their newborn child brought to the front; Lannister promises to have the child catapulted into the keep if Edmure does not negotiate a surrender. Jamie promises to kill every single Tully in order to complete his task, and return to Cersei. That is the justification he uses, verbally. But he clearly does not want to endanger Brienne's life. The tactic works. Edmure Tully, who is the Lord Commander of the keep, tells the captain of the guard to instruct his men to lay down their arms, and exit the keep; which, they do. The Blackfish fights to the death. He is the only casualty.

So what happened because of Brienne's appearance? Oh, not much changed. Thousands of men didn't die. Jamie Lannister re-took the castle for Walder Frey in one day, instead of taking weeks, if not months, to do so. And, more importantly, hundreds of soldiers, loyal to the Starks, were allowed to leave the keep unharmed (and where could they possibly go now, after the Blackfish received written correspondence from Sansa that they are about to retake Winterfell??) And, both Jamie and Brienne leave the conflict unharmed.

But yeah, Brienne's appearance was not at all consequential.

Respectfully, perhaps you should pay a little more attention to what's really going on.

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

the showrunners are definitely lost...are all the people in DORNE dead? just so many throwaway storylines. with GRRM you would never get to a destination, but at least the journey getting there is never-ending

edit: i am waiting for a targaryen prequel show, that would be pretty awesome. feels like with GoT success the franchise is not going to end in a couple years with ASOIAF

"with GRRM you would never get to a destination, but at least the journey getting there is never-ending "

I don't even know what that means, really. But have you learned nothing from watching this show? Are story arcs ever really "done" with? They're certainly not just "thrown away", as you opined.

We thought Benjen Stark was dead in season one. Lo and behold, he's alive and well, and helping Bran Stark escape the White Walkers in season six.

How about you just wait and see what happens? If, after the series has concluded, there are story arcs that you feel were left to no conclusion, please feel free to share those thoughts. But the show is ongoing, and there are at least 12 hour long episodes remaining. I think the show runners have earned a little leeway after six great seasons. If anything, I think we'd all agree that George RR Martin, and the show runners/writers are masters of misdirection. Just when you think you've got something figured out, or you think somebody is safe, all hell breaks loose.

[the 'stache]

And by the way, gang, while George hasn't written a novel to cover the narrative as we're seeing it in season six, be absolutely sure that none of the story lines being written for the show are not meeting his final approval. For instance, the shocking ending of Hodor's life, while clearly not covered in any of Martin's ASOIAF novels, was told directly to David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

George is still very much involved in the creative process. While the writers have been given some leeway, this is still very much George RR Martin's show.

[packs]

You can defend it all you want. The scenes at Riverrun were a disaster in my opinion. The whole show has been moving towards turning Jamie into a better version of himself (i.e. the scenes with him and Tyrion / his daughter / niece and the original scenes with Brienne) only to have him throw all of that away for a blind allegiance to Cersei that seemed thrown in just to drum up some drama. The ancillary things you mention about the keep and the soldiers mean nothing to the overall story. That's all surface and no substance. Who cares about Edmure or his soldiers?

The same is true of Arya. The idea of her losing her identity and reclaiming it is a good storyline. But using Bravos to accomplish that was not a good choice in my opinion. Those scenes were painfully dull. The play scenes between the Starks and the Lannisters were great but it was too little too late if you ask me. There was a ton of time that could have been cut, especially since it seems like Bran is the real power player of the story and has received a fraction of the screen time.

[the 'stache]

How the hell do you know what the scene with the soldiers, and the keep, are going to mean going forward? Are you clairvoyant now?

"Who cares about Edmure, or his soldiers?"

Um, Jon Snow and Sansa Stark just might, if those soldiers come to aid their retaking of Winterfell. It might not happen, as there may be insufficient time for them to get there, even if that was their aim. But the point is, you don't know.

You completely whiffed in your assessments of two key scenes. Now, instead of attempting to refute either of the statements I made, you're left with "you can defend it all you want. the scenes were a disaster, in my opinion."

Yes. Your opinion. And your opinion is, seemingly, pretty ill-informed.

And as for Bran receiving a fraction of the screen time...if he'd been receiving more time, you'd be complaining "oh, all Bran does is sit in a tree, and visit things that happen in the past. Nothing really advancing the narrative. Boring!"

If you're enjoying the show so little, stop watching. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by packs

You can defend it all you want. The scenes at Riverrun were a disaster in my opinion. The whole show has been moving towards turning Jamie into a better version of himself (i.e. the scenes with him and Tyrion / his daughter / niece and the original scenes with Brienne) only to have him throw all of that away for a blind allegiance to Cersei that seemed thrown in just to drum up some drama. The ancillary things you mention about the keep and the soldiers mean nothing to the overall story. That's all surface and no substance. Who cares about Edmure or his soldiers?

The same is true of Arya. The idea of her losing her identity and reclaiming it is a good storyline. But using Bravos to accomplish that was not a good choice in my opinion. Those scenes were painfully dull. The play scenes between the Starks and the Lannisters were great but it was too little too late if you ask me. There was a ton of time that could have been cut, especially since it seems like Bran is the real power player of the story and has received a fraction of the screen time.

[packs]

Haha ok dude settle down. I already said the concept behind the scenes were things I enjoyed but the execution of them was poor. They pumped the Blackfish for like 3 episodes, gave him 20 minutes of screen time, passed on a battle, and then killed him off screen. That's not compelling to me. Jamie and Brienne could have had their reunion in a much more effective way and the total 180 of Jamie's character out of nowhere let me down tremendously. And that's what I think. I don't care if you agree. This thread isn't about everyone sharing your opinion. I'm free to have my opinion and you're free to have yours.

[the 'stache]

You absolutely are entitled to your opinion, and I welcome reading it. But when you make a statement that has no basis in fact (basically saying Brienne's arrival had no bearing on the outcome), that's a different matter.

Jamie has very strong feelings for Brienne. What other rational is there for his not only giving her Oathbreaker, one of perhaps ten swords in the world made of Valyrian steel, but letting her go when he had every justification for having her captured? Sansa, the woman Brienne serves, is wanted for King Joffrey's murder. If, indeed, he cares very deeply for her, a 180 degree turn is not at all surprising.

"The things we do for love."

Remember Jamie uttering that in the very first episode of season one, right before shoving Bran out of the tower window for seeing he and Cersei in a very compromising position? If his feelings are truly as deep as they seem to be, I don't think his actions are at all surprising.

Originally Posted by packs

Haha ok dude settle down. I already said the concept behind the scenes were things I enjoyed but the execution of them was poor. They pumped the Blackfish for like 3 episodes, gave him 20 minutes of screen time, passed on a battle, and then killed him off screen. That's not compelling to me. Jamie and Brienne could have had their reunion in a much more effective way and the total 180 of Jamie's character out of nowhere let me down tremendously. And that's what I think. I don't care if you agree. This thread isn't about everyone sharing your opinion. I'm free to have my opinion and you're free to have yours.

[packs]

The 180 I was talking about with Jamie was that his character was on an arc of redemption. He begins the series as this cruel, warrior-type that has a blind faith in his name and family. But throughout the series he's wavered in key moments, like when he allowed Tyrion to escape or when he initially came to Brienne's aid. When he lost his hand he seemed to lose some of what he was in the past as well. He goes on this great mission to rescue his daughter and tries to mentor her as a father shortly before she dies, something he wouldn't have done in the past. And then we get to Riverrun where he simply decides he will just continue to be the same Jamie he had always been, with a blind allegiance to Cersei.