nearly untouchable records...which will be the first to fall?

[Touch'EmAll]

Over the years I have occasionally argued Ryan one of the greatest pitchers ever and have had quite a few people disagree. He has 1/3 of all the unbreakable pitching records mentioned in this threads initial post. Don't forget he still has Guiness Book Records - fastest pitch ever - ever in the entire history of baseball. My dad took me to that particular game he was clocked. They measured him at 10 feet from home plate - now they measure from 10 feet from the mound. The ball slows down an average of 8 mph from release to home plate.

added: Another record unbreakable - Ryan's career hits allowed per 9 inning game is lowest of any pitcher that ever played - nobody is going to break that record.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Over the years I have occasionally argued Ryan one of the greatest pitchers ever and have had quite a few people disagree. He has 1/3 of all the unbreakable pitching records mentioned in this threads initial post. Don't forget he still has Guiness Book Records - fastest pitch ever - ever in the entire history of baseball. My dad took me to that particular game he was clocked. They measured him at 10 feet from home plate - now they measure from 10 feet from the mound. The ball slows down an average of 8 mph from release to home plate.

added: Another record unbreakable - Ryan's career hits allowed per 9 inning game is lowest of any pitcher that ever played - nobody is going to break that record.

Bill James ranks him in the 20s. I would agree with that assessment, records notwithstanding. Look at the walks. Look at the JAWS metric which ranks him 31st.

[packs]

I think Ryan will always be viewed as a thrower and not a pitcher. Numbers aside, you can't tell me he was a better pitcher than Greg Maddux.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I think Ryan will always be viewed as a thrower and not a pitcher. Numbers aside, you can't tell me he was a better pitcher than Greg Maddux.

The yardstick I like is Seaver, whose RC the prior year despite being a high number sells for much much less. Ryan couldn't hold a candle to Seaver as a pitcher IMO.

[Touch'EmAll]

A ground ball out or fly out sometimes only takes one pitch. A strikeout takes 3 very good pitches - so good that major leaguers try with all their abilities to hit it, and can't. There are no records for most fly outs pitched.

There are always exceptions to the rules of greatness. Sometimes we get too stuck on black and white numbers. I grew up half hour from Anaheim Stadium and was lucky to attend many games (thanks mom & dad) and saw many great players, both pitchers and position players. Nobody ever drew the crowds awe like the Ryan Express. The feeling in the air and the banter of the crowd the night he pitched was different, unique, electric, almost bone chilling. It was very special and most everyone knew deep down inside that they will never see any other player like this ever again - a player that comes along once in a lifetime.

A couple players I saw come sort of close to this mold - where everyone is on pins and needles when they strut their stuff - nobody wants to miss out standing in the concession line - watch the dude - get food later: Reggie Jackson and Bo Jackson.

Yes, you can make good argument for other players better I suppose. But who would you rather spend your hard earned money taking the family out to see - Jim Palmer, Greg Maddux, etc - or Nolan Ryan?

[packs]

It's not a knock on Ryan. He was incredible. But I view him like I do Randy Johnson. If he couldn't throw so hard, would he have been a great pitcher? I'm not so sure. But I don't deny it takes immeasurable talent to control that heat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

A ground ball out or fly out sometimes only takes one pitch. A strikeout takes 3 very good pitches - so good that major leaguers try with all their abilities to hit it, and can't. There are no records for most fly outs pitched.

There are always exceptions to the rules of greatness. Sometimes we get too stuck on black and white numbers. I grew up half hour from Anaheim Stadium and was lucky to attend many games (thanks mom & dad) and saw many great players, both pitchers and position players. Nobody ever drew the crowds awe like the Ryan Express. The feeling in the air and the banter of the crowd the night he pitched was different, unique, electric, almost bone chilling. It was very special and most everyone knew deep down inside that they will never see any other player like this ever again - a player that comes along once in a lifetime.

A couple players I saw come sort of close to this mold - where everyone is on pins and needles when they strut their stuff - nobody wants to miss out standing in the concession line - watch the dude - get food later: Reggie Jackson and Bo Jackson.

Yes, you can make good argument for other players better I suppose. But who would you rather spend your hard earned money taking the family out to see - Jim Palmer, Greg Maddux, etc - or Nolan Ryan?

Of those honestly I would most enjoy watching Maddux.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of those honestly I would most enjoy watching Maddux.

Agreed.

[the 'stache]

A strikeout doesn't require three very good pitches. Specious statement. I've seen hitters strike out on pitches in the dirt. I've seen hitters strike out on pitches way out of the strike zone. Were those good pitches, or was the batter striking out exhibiting deplorable plate discipline? Certainly, a pitcher can strike out a batter as a result of three great pitches, but it's not a requirement, especially today, when some batters are whiffing 200 times in a season.

As far as the greatest pitchers to ever play the game go, I wouldn't put Ryan on the short list. Peter mentioned that Bill James had him somewhere in the twenties, and I'd agree with that. Lower twenties. When I think of "greatest" to ever play the game, I have to limit the list to about ten pitchers. After that, it starts getting watered down. If you want to say he was one of the truly outstanding pitchers in the game's history, I could agree with that. But "greatest" infers the true elite. That, I cannot.

I look at Nolan's career, season by season. He had a lot of strikeouts, of course. But he also had a hell of a lot of walks. That's indicative of a guy that went up there and threw a lot of heat, but without as much control as a true "ace" might have. That knocks him down a peg. For every two guys he struck out, he walked one. So, if he whiffed ten guys in one game, he also put five base runners on without getting a hit. His career hits allowed per nine innings pitched is the best ever, but his WHIP is nowhere near the top. Base runners are base runners. It really doesn't matter if they get on by a hit, or by a walk. Of all Major League pitchers with 300 or more starts, Ryan's 1.247 is 91st all-time. Now, when I look at his FIP (fielding independent pitching), Ryan jumps way up on the list to 27th all-time. Of modern pitchers (again, with 300 + starts), he ranks fourth behind Koufax, Gibson and Pedro. That brings him way up on the list. Those are the two metrics I really look at when considering a pitcher's greatness.

Nolan Ryan had one truly great season, 1981. And that wasn't a full season, because of the strike. He only threw 149 innings. His ERA was a league-leading 1.69, his ERA + was 195. His next highest ERA +, in any season, was a 142 in 1987--at age 40. Now, a part of this can be explained by the teams behind him. Ryan was on a lot of mediocre teams earlier in his career. But, I just can't get past his career 112 ERA +. A 100 is league average. Al Leiter, Frank Viola and Mel Stottlemeyer also had over 300 career starts, and a 112 ERA + career mark. Ryan ranks 109th all-time on the list for starter career ERA +. And, that mark doesn't lower because he played so long. If I look at his career ERA + from 1966 to 1981--when he had his career high 195 mark--his ERA + to that point in his career was....112.

He gets marks for his longevity. And, again, he was real fun to watch. But one of the truly elite pitchers in the game's history? Not in my opinion. But, there's nothing wrong with being one of the best twenty to thirty pitchers to ever play the game.

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

A ground ball out or fly out sometimes only takes one pitch. A strikeout takes 3 very good pitches - so good that major leaguers try with all their abilities to hit it, and can't.

[clydepepper]

Nolan Ryan is third favorite player of all-time behind Mickey Mantle and Sandy Koufax.

All were lacking of one thing or the other: Koufax's light shown bright, but for a very short time; Mantle struck out a lot and wasted what was viewed as his potential; and, in addition to all you have stated about Ryan, he was also a terrible fielder.

However, all three of these players were wonderful fun to watch, though I only got to see Koufax and Mantle a little.

Truly, there is a distinct difference between elite players - with only a very few being in the top strata of that descriptor.


Koufax had some of the greatest seasons ever by a pitcher, but he doesn't have any records that would be considered unreachable.


Mantle, also, had some truly legendary seasons, but only one of his may be unreachable - his 18 World Series Home Runs.


Ryan never had a season the caliber of the other two, but, good grief - 7 No-Hitters AND 12 1-Hitters!!!

I won't live long enough to see those even approached.

- and one more thing about Ryan's walks: He had two seasons were he walked more than 200 batters, but, because he had the ability to strike out batters in the clutch, his ERA was below 3.00 each time. Now, that's amazing!!


.

[Touch'EmAll]

I saw Ryan at/near his career prime - 1970's. As a fan, he offered non-statistical qualities that made him larger than life. You had to be there to understand, to feel it, to live it - extraordinary! He did things no other pitcher could do. He was more electric and often more dominating than any other pitcher who ever played.

I was a kid 8 years old in 1973 when he won 21 games for the Angels (team won 79). Had 2.87 ERA, tallied 2 no-hitters, broke Koufax's single season strikeout record with 383, and perhaps most astonishing was his 26 complete games, yes you read that right - 26 complete games. And I didn't even list all the 1-hitters and 2-hitters. Try all you want Seaver, Carlton, Catfish, Perry, Palmer and whoever else - you are never going to put up those kind of numbers.

Of course, I did not see him in Houston or Texas, where many, many years contributed to watering down his stats. But, like Koufax, with a limited time of incredible greatness, he had the most wow factor of the absolute greatest to ever play.

Ruth, Cobb and Mantle's cards are expensive because collectors perceive the overall greatness (statistical and non-statistical) warrants the price. How do the other similar era "better" pitchers RC's stack up to Ryan's ?

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The yardstick I like is Seaver, whose RC the prior year despite being a high number sells for much much less. Ryan couldn't hold a candle to Seaver as a pitcher IMO.

Hey peter n i finally agree on something. Ryan wasnt even the best pitcher of his generation...much less one of the best ever. We need championship belts for best pitcher going by decades.