Is it possible to create a laser-scan card grading machine?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I think a machine could provide consistent grades. However, it would only be a matter of time before the scammers were able to slip fake cards past RoboGrader1000.

Or the guy in Mexico would get his own and reprogram it.

[sportscardtheory]

I would believe that this would only be valid if done through a reputable company with their reputation on the line. Just like now, people who grade their own cards have no rep or brand name to put behind their cards, so they would be an afterthought, just like they are now. It would have to be a valid start-up or a company like PSA, SGC or BGS to get the ball rolling on this concept.

[steve B]

Interesting stuff.

I have no doubt at all that current technology could easily handle the easy things.
Size, no problem.

Corner wear also no problem. With exceptions on stuff like 88 score with three different die cuts. The first left tufts of torn cardstock on each corner, the second left those about 1/4 inch in from the corners on each edge. I'm sure that could be programmed around.

Edge wear - Tricky, but only because of the physical handling required to scan edges. Yes, even a hobby level robot could do it, but I'm not sure I'd trust a really expensive card to even a really nice commercial/industrial machine.

Identification would be possible, and probably fairly easy. The hard bit as I mentioned would be building the database. I know some of the automated systems can discern between a variety of objects on a conveyor, but as far as I know those systems are limited to picking out a known object from a group of other known objects, with maybe a few hundred different? The one I've seen only had to deal with about 10 different objects. How many cards are there? Just Topps base cards between 1970 and now is around 32000 not counting variations. And that's just base cards from one company.

Determining fakes from real based on the printing? Maybe easy, maybe not. You'd need fairly high resolution scans, I'm not sure how fast commercial scanners can do that. Certainly faster than my home scanner, but how fast? And that's where I think the data problems would get really troublesome. I would believe that adjusting for registration issues can be done simply. The same would probably be true for over/under inking, print lines smeared ink, etc. However once you're comparing dot patterns, the number of different cards goes up a lot. Some sets that had multiple print runs are different when seen at that level. Some sets have cardstock differences that are maybe challenging to tell apart from toning/staining. One of the earlier Topps Allen and Ginter sets had printed on "tobacco stains" (I learned about them when I was opening packs and eating a chocolate bar, I thought I'd ruined an entire box until I realized those stains were part of the design.

Presumably you'd need a known good example to compare the new image to.
That's a LOT of images and pretty big database. Yes, the storage isn't a problem, and a good system is fast enough that it's not really a problem. But the time to create that database and library of images with fairly high resolution seems a bit daunting to me. yeah, the junk wax era could be run through a really automated scanner, but you might have trouble getting access to the more expensive or rare cards.


Surfaces - Ok, I may have to surrender this point. I'm not positive, only because stuff like a scratch on glass usually changes the color where the scratch is, and that's easy for a machine. I'm not sure about something like fine scratches on a very glossy card, or a scratch on the back of a card where it's maybe a thousandth deep, and the same color as the surrounding cardstock, and can be similar to natural imperfections of the material.


I mentioned it poorly, others have said it better that it's more of a business case. How much do the really good systems cost for the physical machine and the development? And how fast can the cards be imaged on all 6 sides and compared? It's probably not hard to hire 3-4 people who can reasonably accurately grade a card in a few minutes for about the same as one good developer. And their hardware/technology cost is far lower, a decent magnifier is under a hundred maybe under 10 depending on how fancy you want. A top quality ruler and usable caliper under 50, and however fancy a computer you want for data entry.

Steve B

[bcornell]

[REMOVED] This forum is done.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Actually, it could not. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that the OP has about technology. And "lasers".

Computers like uniformity. Grading cards is a textbook example of something that humans can do infinitely better than computers because of the enormous amount of variance involved. Do humans grade cards perfectly? No. Would computers do it far, far worse? Undoubtedly.

Bill

I have to agree on this. There are so many subtleties to grading that I don't think Artificial Intelligence (machines) can/could pick up. Subjectivity (and probably relativity too) is indeed not a characteristic of computers. So that being said, I know they are getting better all of time. My freaking car takes over my steering, on the road, if it goes over a solid line. It puts on the brakes if I don't. So I know technology is getting more advanced.
I think if a machine were to do it you would have all sorts of disagreements on the software used in one machine versus another, parameters used etc etc... Where does it stop? That being said, I am not naive enough to think machines might not do it in the future, I just can't imagine it right now or see how it could be done.

.

[T205 GB]

I will just say at this point in time there is 1 machine that is capable of doing a vast majority of the work for the grader. Authenticating will always need human experience no doubt, and is the first step in the process before the machine gets its turn. From there all the data compiled allows the grader to chart the grade accurately and also will be able to detect if a card has ran through the system before. This stops multiple attempts at trying for different grades as well as being able to detect if the card was altered in any way from break out till re-attempt at grading.

With this being said I would highly suggest that if anyone is attempting this be very cautious!! You are more than 99% likely to infringe on proprietary software and processes in place for this.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Actually, it could not. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that the OP has about technology. And "lasers".

Computers like uniformity. Grading cards is a textbook example of something that humans can do infinitely better than computers because of the enormous amount of variance involved. Do humans grade cards perfectly? No. Would computers do it far, far worse? Undoubtedly.

Bill

Agreed.

By that post we'd moved on from lasers to current scanning technology and machine vision. Which can do some amazing things. The easy stuff I was referring to is stuff like centering and size. There's stuff out there for stamps that will measure the perforations (The hole they used to punch to make them easy to separate) So I'm sure size and centering and maybe corners are no problem at all.

Steve B

[sportscardtheory]

If you have an issue with the use of the word lasers, you are missing the point entirely. I'm not explaining the blueprints on manufacturing the machine, I'm asking if it's possible for a machine to grade cards. Relax. I never claimed to be an expert on machine card grading. I asked if people think it's feasible. I do love the "get off my lawn" responses though. Close-minded people are funny. In this day and age... railing against technology. lol

[steve B]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

If you have an issue with the use of the word lasers, you are missing the point entirely. I'm not explaining the blueprints on manufacturing the machine, I'm asking if it's possible for a machine to grade cards. Relax. I never claimed to be an expert on machine card grading. I asked if people think it's feasible. I do love the "get off my lawn" responses though. Close-minded people are funny. In this day and age... railing against technology. lol

Not railing against technology, amusing that's what you got from it.

I trained in CAD/CAM 1984-86, and was doing computer stuff before that. Let it go because times changed while I was in school and the couple computer drafting jobs I interviewed for paid less than McDonalds. Got back into things a few years ago, and a lot has changed.

CNC milling machine 1984- Hard programming and cost about 250K for what's now a fairly simple one.
Today? You can get a decent tabletop machine for under 3K and running it is pretty easy. Full size only around 8400, and they do way more than the one I learned on.

CAD stuff? 1984 - not really any 3-D systems unless you were a major corporation. Saw one on a field trip that was 2d, but did all 3 views at once. Cost 50K for the workstation, plus whatever the software cost, plus a mainframe to run it on.
By 1987 there was AutoCAD which did that but on a PC that cost maybe 4K
Now? A couple years ago I downloaded a so-so 3d program for free. And a really good 2-D program also for free.

The first self driving car I was film of couldn't stay on a closed well marked road at anything over a brisk walking pace. I hear they're pretty good now.

3D printing was a lab experiment in about 1986 or so. Now you can get one in the bookstore for about $300

Technology is a wonderful thing, a lot of what we take for granted was insanely impossible a decade or two ago.

But the current stuff has limits to what it can do just like the old stuff had, just different.
What does bug me is silly use of technology where it's unnecessary or makes things less reliable. Like having a switch tell a computer to turn another switch to turn on my headlights. Just a wire and switch worked really well for oh...a century, and will still be reliable and less expensive.
or
One of the guys at the makerspace wanted to drill a hole in a metal bar. Just a simple 3/8 hole with a lot of tolerance for location "about here, maybe within a 16th of an inch" He wanted to know how to program the CNC machine. And was shocked when I told him I could get it done far faster than I could program it. Took under 5 minutes, most of which was finding the drill bit.


So can someone make a card grading machine right now? Probably.
Would it be all that good at it? Probably not.
Could someone make a card grading machine at some future date? Certainly
Could they make one that would be good at it? Someday, I just don't think that time is now.

And-- Could it involve lasers?

YES! It's possible to make really fine measurements with lasers. That's how they detected gravity waves earlier this year. Something like 4 Kilometers of distance for the laser paths which have to be perpendicular. And the difference that made for a detectable event was so small I don't have an easy way to explain it. Of course, that cost a LOT of money.

These are pretty cool. And may be cheap enough for me to get one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKhbEz00ksM


Now git offen my lawn ya pesky kid


Steve B