Clayton Kershaw

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Good, but flawed research, Chad. I'm sure you meant Koufax's LAST 250 games.

I stand by my conviction that Koufax was better...and I absolutely will not 'pay any attention to the man behind the curtain'.

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Koufax's LAST 250 he was probably 250-0. Those are almost certainly his first 250.

[chaddurbin]

mmm yea reading is hard, and certainly you would want koufax's LAST 250 starts to compare to anybody's. koufax had to retire after his age 30-season. i'm willing to bet barring injury after kershaw's age 30 year i would take his 5-year stretch over any of sandy's.

of course legends are made in the postseasons, and koufax is so beloved because he brought home a couple championships. kershaw hasn't done it yet (though not entirely his fault), and i don't feel as constructed the dodgers will win big anytime soon during kershaw's prime years.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Koufax's LAST 250 he was probably 250-0. Those are almost certainly his first 250.

Peter - you are so right...I wasn't paying attention to details again...anytime I see a comparison to part of Koufax's career, I assume it is the last portion that is being mentioned - and I typed out a response without even reading what I was responding to.


You can only imagine how bad I would be at Twitter...


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[BearBailey]

Kershaw is certainly on his way but still very early in his career for me, I still think Greg Madfux is the best pitcher I have ever seen. I was shocked this week on the ESPN rankings having Pedro in 1st by quire a bit. I was lucky enough Enough to see Pedro pitch 5 starts and 1 inning of relief on either the last or next to last of the season. He was 0-4 with 1 no decision. As great as he was I just saw him in person on the wrong nights?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on the combination of greatness at his peak and longevity, I would take Clemens with Maddux a close second. Don't overlook the Big Unit either.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on the combination of greatness at his peak and longevity, I would take Clemens with Maddux a close second. Don't overlook the Big Unit either.

But, NOT based on his integrity.





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[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on the combination of greatness at his peak and longevity, I would take Clemens with Maddux a close second. Don't overlook the Big Unit either.

How can you look over a Big Unit? Do tell.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

How can you look over a Big Unit? Do tell.

By overstating the case for Pedro as the greatest ever.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 58 (19), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 215 (31), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 206 (21), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 60 (16), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (21st), 84.0 career WAR/58.2 7yr-peak WAR/71.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO THE UNIT

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 99 (6), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 280 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 331 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 65 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (9th), 102.1 career WAR/62.0 7yr-peak WAR/82.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO CLEMENS

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 100 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 320 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 332 (2), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 73 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (3rd), 140.3 career WAR/66.3 7yr-peak WAR/103.3 JAWS

[JustCollectVP]

I'm on the Pedro/Koufax bandwagon with respect to post-war dominance over a specific period of their careers. Clemens, Maddux and Johnson may have had better numbers over a longer length of career, but over a consecutive 3-4 year stretch, I'll take Pedro first and then Sandy. They were so much better than their contemporaries over their respective stretches that I would challenge someone to provide evidence that anyone was better since the end of WWII.

I'm still holding my breath that Julio Urias stays healthy, because he reminds me of Pedro throwing from the left side... While obviously putting the cart before the horse and being somewhat blasphemous to the Dodger blue, he may make Kershaw's dominance an afterthought in a few seasons.

[clydepepper]

Using the Bill James HOF Statistical Ranking System puts a lot of emphasis on volume no matter how long it takes. Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield and Nolan Ryan are just three that benefit from it.

Even Harold Baines gets a higher rank due to the length of his career.

James had, in his Historical Abstracts, addressed this with Peak Value.

RJ is dominant from either perspective, but personally it's more impressive for a small guy to do it than a giant of a man.


Once again, Clemens like Bonds could have easily qualified as the best of their generation, and in many folks opinion, still are.

In my opinion, however, when the line between what was legit and what was not is blurred to the point where the actual Record Book is doubted, such an anointment is dubious at best.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By overstating the case for Pedro as the greatest ever.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 58 (19), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 215 (31), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 206 (21), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 60 (16), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (21st), 84.0 career WAR/58.2 7yr-peak WAR/71.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO THE UNIT

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 99 (6), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 280 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 331 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 65 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (9th), 102.1 career WAR/62.0 7yr-peak WAR/82.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO CLEMENS

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 100 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 320 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 332 (2), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 73 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (3rd), 140.3 career WAR/66.3 7yr-peak WAR/103.3 JAWS