Shill Bidding

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Jeffrompa

That's what Bill Mastro said .

Bill Mastro broke the rules of his own auctions. If Mastro had put in language in the terms and conditions that stated certain lots have pre-established reserves and will be subject to house bids up to the reserve, than Mastro would not be in jail. (Assuming he only bid up to the reserve).

Christie's, Sotheby's, Phillips and most every big and small auction house in the world has similar language. I believe sports memorabilia is the only industry that frowns upon the practice.

[Exhibitman]

This is really simple, guys:

reserve = legal
shilling = illegal.

No moral judgment, no excuses, just simple criminal conduct.

You want to use a reserve, use a reserve. Don't pretend there is a market auction going on if there isn't.

As for why shill, it is a long con: create an inflated market price then sell into it later on. I saw the same thing done to jack up the prices of real estate in the 1980s-1990s: fake sales with straw man buyers to inflate comparable sales prices, followed by real sales at inflated prices.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This is really simple, guys:

reserve = legal
shilling = illegal.

Simple as that.

I agree, but does our hobby differentiate? If PWCC included in their auction description that there is a hidden reserve on some lots and may be bid up to that amount by the house, will our hobby accept this?

I don't believe the use of hidden reserves (even though legal) is ever an acceptable practice with sports auctions.

[Jeffrompa]

Everyone is bored with this subject . I am too . I guess its a fact of life people are lying cheaters .

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I agree, but does our hobby differentiate? If PWCC included in their auction description that there is a hidden reserve on some lots and may be bid up to that amount by the house, will our hobby accept this?

I don't believe the use of hidden reserves (even though legal) is ever an acceptable practice with sports auctions.

I think as the hobby matures it is a sad but true fact that if you don't know the hobby market you can get taken by a shill. Of course they can and do happen anyway, and collectors get taken, but knowledge is always key. There are several auction houses that have that practice of bidding in their own auctions. I don't agree with any of them personally but if I want to bid then I accept the rule. As Adam said, shilling is illegal and setting reserves isn't. And for some reason, if an AH says they bid on their own lots it's ok. So as long as you say you are shilling (house bidding) then it's all A-OK. (just not to me)

[Snapolit1]

I suspect that the guy who gives the Mantle card to PWCC tells his best friends to run it up till it gets to a realistic number and then see what happens. No shiller with an empty wallet really wants to end up holding that size bag when the music ends. Maybe it has more to do with the insanity of PWCC starting a $75,000 Mantle card at a penny.

I like PWCC. They seem to run a very professional gig. Customer servive and shipping is excellent. If you feel otherwise there are other places to buy cards. I doubt Brent needs to worry where any of these items really end up. He must have a warehouse half the size of Washington (or wherever he is.)

[jmb]

I've posted this before but I prefer BIN auctions. If it's within a reasonable window pricewise and the card has eye appeal I'll buy it.

I did however, recently bid in a PWCC auction (1st time) and only bid once in the last 5 seconds live. I ended up winning the card for a lot less than the bid I entered.

[Snapolit1]

I always feel a lot better putting my ultimate high bid on ebay than on a website controlled by the auction house. I've had the same experience with PWCC on eBay where my final price was not reached and I won the item.

[botn]

Originally Posted by jmb

I've posted this before but I prefer BIN auctions. If it's within a reasonable window pricewise and the card has eye appeal I'll buy it.

I did however, recently bid in a PWCC auction (1st time) and only bid once in the last 5 seconds live. I ended up winning the card for a lot less than the bid I entered.

I too have gotten some fair deals on PWCC auctions. He lists 10,000 or more auctions a month. Even if there is shilling or artificial price setting going on it does not mean every consignor is participating. I think it is safe to say that legit consignors are wanting to get their share of these world record prices and might be coming up short but won't know that until after the auctions conclude.