T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

Scot

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.


460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.

Precisely.

Group E subjects were printed with both P42 and Brown Lenox. Group C subjects weren't printed with either P42 or Brown Lenox. Thus, if Bergen is found with either P42 or Brown Lenox, he is Group E and was printed with both. (Whether he SURVIVED with both is of course another question).

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX

.

Speaking of six, your above post shows that exactly six of the 12 Group E guys are so far confirmed with Brown Lenox. It is possible I suppose that Group E needs to be further bifurcated into two subgroups of six each, half printed with Brown Lenox and half not, although I think it's more likely that the to-date confirmation of six Group E guys is mere coincidence. Time may tell.

[Pat R]

Attachment 229871The seller that sold the large group of SC 350-460 Factory 30 "no print" scraps
also sold a large group of SC 350-460/30 subjects that were hand cut.

Howell Fact 30.jpg

There were multiple sales of each subject from the "no print" group
and most of the regular subset subjects were sold in multiples too.

Attachment 229870
Attachment 229871

Howell _1__1.jpg
Howell Back _1__1.jpg
Wilhelm _1__1.jpg
Wilhelm Back _1__1.jpg
What's interesting is the subjects that didn't come up for sale.

Here's the list of "no prints" that were sold

Sold

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake (no ball)
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall (hands at face)
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker (bat Off)
Wagner
White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (batting)
Wiltse (pitching)

No sale

Ames
Lajoie (bat)

The list of subset subjects

Sold

Abbaticchio
Ball (Clev)
Bell (follow through)
Bergen
Bescher
Bridwell (with cap)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands above head)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (with cap)
Devore
Doyle (port)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog
Howeell
Hummel
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (glove at hip)
McGraw (with cap)
Meyers
Murray (port)
Needham
Oldring
Overall (hands at waist level)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte
Sheckard
Smith (happy)
Stovall
Tannehill
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat


No sale

Chase (trophy)
Duffy
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle
Schaefer
Schlei (batting)
Schlei (port)
Seymour (port)
Wiltse (with cap)

[sreader3]

Hi Pat,
Thanks for the input. This seems more or less consistent with what we've been saying in this thread since all of the SC460/30 no-prints among the scrap were Group B guys whereas Ames (Hands High) is a Group A guy. As for the yes-prints, maybe a little surprised that Bergen (Catching), Murray (Portrait) and Overall (Hands at Waist) were among the scrap when the other Group E guys weren't. Who knows what that's about.
Scot

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Pat,
Thanks for the input. This seems more or less consistent with what we've been saying in this thread since all of the SC460/30 no-prints among the scrap were Group B guys whereas Ames (Hands High) is a Group A guy. As for the yes-prints, maybe a little surprised that Bergen (Catching), Murray (Portrait) and Overall (Hands at Waist) were among the scrap when the other Group E guys weren't. Who knows what that's about.
Scot

Hi Scot,

There could be a number of reasons why but the no sale of Lajoie from the no
prints and Duffy from the subjects that were printed with this back stand out.

There were three Bergen & Overall's that sold and two Murray's.

Bergen_1.jpg
Bergen Back_1.jpg
Overall _waist_ _1__1.jpg
Overall _waist_ Back _1__1.jpg
Murray _1__1.jpg
Murray Back _1__1.jpg

[Luke]

Pat,

It probably doesn't matter much to the point you were making, but I believe my Overall makes at least 4 (could be one of those, but looks slightly different). I bought it during the kw1b1 auctions.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Scot,

There could be a number of reasons why but the no sale of Lajoie from the no
prints and Duffy from the subjects that were printed with this back stand out.

There were three Bergen & Overall's that sold and two Murray's.

Attachment 229925
Attachment 229926
Attachment 229927
Attachment 229928
Attachment 229929
Attachment 229930

[tedzan]

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive


Hey guys,

Let's stick with the topic of this thread......the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series cards. These cards are clearly illustrated in Group A and Group B.

Regarding these posted cards with SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Howell (hand on hip)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

These 4 guys are 460-only series subjects of which the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 is a normal back.

Injecting these 4 into the conversation in this thread tends to confuse readers who are trying to understand the complexities of the 350/460 series.

The 460-only series cards are for another thread on another day.

Thank you.

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Attachment 229871The seller that sold the large group of SC 350-460 Factory 30 "no print" scraps
also sold a large group of SC 350-460/30 subjects that were hand cut.


The list of subset subjects

Sold

Abbaticchio
Ball (Clev)
Bell (follow through)
Bergen
Bescher
Bridwell (with cap)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands above head)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (with cap)
Devore
Doyle (port)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog
Howeell
Hummel
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (glove at hip)
McGraw (with cap)
Meyers
Murray (port)
Needham
Oldring
Overall (hands at waist level)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte
Sheckard
Smith (happy)
Stovall
Tannehill
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat


No sale

Chase (trophy)
Duffy
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle
Schaefer
Schlei (batting)
Schlei (port)
Seymour (port)
Wiltse (with cap)

Pat and Scot

I'm not sure I understand why these 460-only series subjects with Sweet Cap 460 Factory #30 backs are of interest here.
As we all know, these guys were normally issued with this Sweet Cap back (unlike the 350/460 series subjects).

What am I missing in this discussion ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

In light of the 2 long anticipated, and recently discovered, rare T206 front/back combos** in the 350/460 series,
I'm reviving this thread in search of more missing rare T206's in this series.
I'll start this search with red HINDU cards.



Thirty-one of the 35 subjects in the 350/460 series in Group A have been confirmed with the red HINDU back.
These 4 remaining subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

If anyone on this forum has (or has seen) any one of these 4 cards, please show or tell us of them. Thanks, in advance.


** Note....the 2 recently discovered T206's referred to above are: Tinker (bat off shoulder) / PIEDMONT 460, Fac. #42
and Donlin (bat) / LENOX


A following post here searches for the missing BROAD LEAF 460 cards.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

.
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 .... UZIT



Group A

.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. Only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series
were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

There are 8 subjects from Group A that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually
be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


If you have (or know of) any of these 8 guys with BROAD LEAF 460 backs, please show or tell us of them.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Group B






UZIT

.



Unlike the missing BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects in Group A, all 28 subjects in Group B have been confirmed with the UZIT back.


350/460 series...............................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z
.

[Leon]

There sure was some nice eye candy in this thread. Thanks for sharing, everyone (especially Teddy Z)!!

[tedzan]

Group B






AMERICAN BEAUTY 460

.



Unlike the missing BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects in Group A, all 28 subjects in Group B have been confirmed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back.


350/460 series...............................28 subjects (complete)

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z
.

[Gradedcardman]

Great stuff guys. Thanks for keeping up with it all. In my experience with the PD 42's the ones not confirmed by sale or scan are:


Bergen Catching
Chance Batting
Murray Portrait
Overall Hands at Waist (Blue Sky)

I think the Cobb Red portrait and Joss pitching could of been double printed. Simply an observation based on the quantity seen and sold over the years.

Scot, i'm a year late on answering your question !!

[tedzan]

Hi Adam

We ran a survey in April 2009 regarding the red Cobb vs its 30 backs (T206, T213, T214, T215, etc.).

The results of a survey clearly indicate that the red Cobb with Piedmont 460, Factory #42 must have been Double-Printed.
Check-it-out......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...d+cobb&page=18


I cannot speak for the T206 Joss (pitching).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

There sure was some nice eye candy in this thread. Thanks for sharing, everyone (especially Teddy Z)!!

Thanks, Leon

Quoting Jackie Gleason's favorite saying.... " How sweet it is ".... all this "eye candy"


TED Z
.