T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive

[tedzan]

Including the 5 cards posted by Pat (post #28), I have accounted for 16 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps" in circulation......

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Leifield
Overall
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willis (bat)
Wiltse

Very interesting, so far all these guys are from the 350/460 series print group that I have designated as Group B.


Group B







If you know of more of these 350/460 series Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 "scraps", please post them here.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Further research has accounted for 27 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps"....all of which are from Group B.

Missing from this group is the Lajoie card.


Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker
Wagner
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse


If anyone knows of a Lajoie with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 back...... please show or tell us of this card.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Baseball*Collectibles]

Thanks for doing this research Ted.

I have done as much research as I possibly can (my computer, with all of my scans etc., crashed ~ 5 years ago), on the confirmed AB460 with Ames. The only information I have are the threads here, eBay, AH sales and my email history. Here is my conclusion.

Back in 2005 until ~ 2006 I sold off my T206 collection, which consisted of near sets of Hindu's/Cycle's/AB's. Most of the collection was sold privately, however, I did sell quite a few to board members/eBay at the time. I found an email chain where I had listed 17 AB460's to a board member. Ames was on the list (Unfortunately no scans). I contacted the board member, and he has confirmed, although we never spoke about it at the time, my colossal error.

The card was a Cycle 460 not the AB460, so I must have accidentally cataloged and mistakenly sold the card as an AB460. One of these days I will spend the money to fix the failed hard drive to confirm, however, I am now 99% sure this was an error on my part, and to note, I should have confirmed the Cycle 460 on Bill's spreadsheet since I had multiple examples. My excel copy, at that time, did not have this card confirmed. Sorry for the confusion, and great job Ted on the research.

Thanks, Tom

[tedzan]

Hi Tom

I really appreciate your response here. It resolves the mystery of the "American Beauty 460" card of Ames.

Since Ames was not printed with an AB 460 back, then I'd bet that Ames was not printed with a UZIT back.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. And, only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

Group A

.





As of today, these 27 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)........................super-print
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)...................super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)....................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)

Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


There are 8 subjects from this group that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow).................super-print
Chase (blue).................................super-print
Chase (dark cap)...........................super-print
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Sorry for the belated response. You've convinced me that Ames is a Group A guy. So here is an updated 460 series profile on which I hope we agree:

Group A:
Ames (Arms High) – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 29 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs Printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F
Uzit: B, C, E, F

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F in common).

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

I like the way you presented the 460 series profile. And, it all looks good to me.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Thanks Ted.

I'm not 100% sure about Bergen's availability with P42 (not sure where you are on that), but we can leave him in Group E for now.

Scot

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

I too, am uncertain about Bergen.

My records dating back to 2006 indicate that his card was confirmed with Piedmont #42.

Then sometime (circa..2008) Bergen was unconfirmed. Then again, he was confirmed in 2010. But, I cannot find who reported this in 2010.


Incidently, with the exception of Overall & Schaefer, the other 10 guys are all New York based players. Is this a coincidence, or by design ?

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

Scot

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.


460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

Take care,

Scot

Hi Scot

Thanks for mentioning the "12 factor" ......which I think it is inherent in the series structure of the T206 set. This factor has become increasingly apparent
to me since I completed my 2nd T206 set in 2004.

In your book, "Inside T206", you further refined this factor by introducing the factor of 6 in the printing structure of the T206 cards (i.e., six Super-Prints,
6 - horizontal T206's, etc.).



TED Z
.