Why is Phil Rizzuto in the HOF?

[tedzan]

Some of the comments here are laughable. Most of you never met Phil Rizzuto; or, never saw him play the game

I grew up in Hillside, NJ in the 1940's and 1950's. Phil's house was 2 blocks away from us. He was a great role model for us kids in the neighborhood.

Monday nites at St. Catherine's school, Phil would get together with us and "Talk Baseball" for a couple of hours. He would give us pointers on how to
be an effective Lead-off batter and how to field our positions....answered a lot of our questions on the ballplayers of that era....and, had a great sense
of humor.

Yes, I saw Phil play from 1947 - 1956. He was great Lead-off guy, who exceeded the "Lead-off constant" associated with Lead-off batters. And, that is
if the lead-off batter in any given inning gets on base, he will score 75 % of the time (barring a double-play). This factor has been a constant in BB.....
since the beginning of the 20th Century.

Hopefully some of you may appreciate me sharing this with you. Whatever, but I don't expect you to be convinced otherwise by this Ted's words.

Here are the words of another Ted (Williams)....who personally told me (in Cooperstown in the 1980's)...... "if Phil Rizzuto played for us (Red SOX) all
those years, we would have been the Champions, instead of the Yankees".

Now, how can you argue with that statement ?


TED Z
.

[sago]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Some of the comments here are laughable. Most of you never met Phil Rizzuto; or, never saw him play the game



Yes, I saw Phil play from 1947 - 1956. He was great Lead-off guy, who exceeded the "Lead-off constant" associated with Lead-off batters. And, that is
if the lead-off batter in any given inning gets on base, he will score 75 % of the time (barring a double-play). This factor has been a constant in BB.....
since the beginning of the 20th Century.
Here are the words of another Ted (Williams)....who personally told me (in Cooperstown in the 1980's)...... "if Phil Rizzuto played for us (Red SOX) all
those years, we would have been the Champions, instead of the Yankees".

All stats courtesy of baseball-reference.com

If this "constant" is accurate, then Rizzuto falls way below it.

Of his 6719 career PA's, 1710 were leading off an inning. His OBP for those appearances was .335, or 20 points lower than his career average, and if I was not lazy, the math would probably be about .365 for non-leadoff
AB's.

Leading off an inning, he hit .254 for his career. Leading off a game, he hit .266. His career average was .273.

For his career, he scored 877 runs, while reaching base 2365 times, or 37% of the time.

If he scored 75% of the time he reached base when leading off an inning (not factoring in the aforementioned double plays), that means he scored 573 times. That would leave 304 runs for the remaining 5009 plate appearances, even though his BA, and OBP were higher when he did not lead off an inning.

An excellent defensive player, who could bunt. Looking at JAWS, WAR, and other innovative stats, he does not come close to deserving a plaque. Maybe in the broadcasting wing, certainly not as a player.

[dstudeba]

Great memories Ted, thanks for sharing them. Hate the Yankees, but loved listening to Rizzuto while falling asleep. I especially remember how much he loved Pags.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sago

All stats courtesy of baseball-reference.com

If this "constant" is accurate, then Rizzuto falls way below it.
..........
..........

An excellent defensive player, who could bunt. Looking at JAWS, WAR, and other innovative stats, he does not come close to deserving a plaque. Maybe in the broadcasting wing, certainly not as a player.

Hey dude

I saw him play from 1947 to 1956; and, my memory is very clear for those years. Also, I have talked with Phil on many an occasion over the years. Can you say the same ?

Your numbers don't tell a true story. For example, I don't see Walks factored into them.

During the Yankees "dynasty" (1941 - 1953), Rizzuto was a key player in the Yankees seven World Championships (plus one AL Championship in 1942). Rizzuto's On Base %
during these 10 years was approx. .355

He scored 805 Runs during this 10-year period. That's a pretty good number for a "non-power" Lead-off hitter.


Anyhow, a better man than you or I said it the best....I will reiterate......

Originally Posted by tedzan

In a conversation with Ted Williams in the 1980's in Cooperstown, Ted told me...... "if Phil Rizzuto played for us (Red SOX) all those years,
we would have been the Champions, instead of the Yankees".

TED Z
.

[kevinlenane]

Dom DiMaggio had over 1000 runs his 10 years and was insane in the outfield. He was a lead off hitter and is still not in the hall of fame and in fact didn't even come close save for some campaigning from Ted and Doerr. Led the league in runs twice, triples once and stolen bases once. Career batting average was .298. His career OBP was .383 which is also higher than Rizzuto.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey dude

I saw him play from 1947 to 1956; and, my memory is very clear for those years. Also, I have talked with Phil on many an occasion over the years. Can you say the same ?

Your numbers don't tell a true story. For example, I don't see Walks factored into them.

During the Yankees "dynasty" (1941 - 1953), Rizzuto was a key player in the Yankees seven World Championships (plus one AL Championship in 1942). Rizzuto's On Base %
during these 10 years was approx. .355

He scored 805 Runs during this 10-year period. That's a pretty good number for a "non-power" Lead-off hitter.


Anyhow, a better man than you or I said it the best....I will reiterate......



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Dom DiMaggio had over 1000 runs his 10 years and was insane in the outfield. He was a lead off hitter and is still not in the hall of fame and in fact didn't even come close save for some campaigning from Ted and Doerr. Led the league in runs twice, triples once and stolen bases once. Career batting average was .298. His career OBP was .383 which is also higher than Rizzuto.

Hey Kevin

You'll get no argument from me on Dom DiMaggio.

I saw all those guys play; and, the 2nd team I rooted for when I was a kid was the Red Sox....since I was an avid Ted Williams fan.

Incidentally, it's my understanding that Ted Williams campaigned strongly for Phil Rizzuto to be in the HOF.


TED Z
.

[Yoda]

I did see Mantle play. My Dad and I took in a game at Yankee Stadium in 1956, his Triple Crown year, and, hard to believe but true, he hit 2 HR's from the left side and 1 from the right, I think I went away with stars in my eyes, a Mantle man forever. One of the things that sometimes gets overlooked with all his achievements on the diamond is that many consider him the best switch hitter ever. I saw and I believed.

[tedzan]

1956 was an amazing year for Mickey.....your Dad picked a great game for you.

Indeed, it was a Triple Crown year with BA = .353, 52 HR, and 130 RBI's.

The last time that a Triple Crown winner hit for that high an Average, and hit over 50 HR's.


Switching back to Rizzuto.....your description of Miss Rizzuto, sounds like you dated Penny.


Take care, John


TED Z
.

[moeson]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I did see Mantle play. My Dad and I took in a game at Yankee Stadium in 1956, his Triple Crown year, and, hard to believe but true, he hit 2 HR's from the left side and 1 from the right, I think I went away with stars in my eyes, a Mantle man forever. One of the things that sometimes gets overlooked with all his achievements on the diamond is that many consider him the best switch hitter ever. I saw and I believed.

It was actually a May 13, 1955 game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bo...95505130.shtml

[kevinlenane]

Ah okay - i guess my argument was by proxy if Phil is in than Dom should be too and if he's not than does Phil really belong there. HOWEVER, since you agree w my assessment of Dom, my argument is fairly moot While we're at it though, Johnny Pesky was also an absolute beast - batted .307 over 10 seasons and led the league in hits 3 times - alas his career - like Dom's was just too short for the HOF...

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Kevin

You'll get no argument from me on Dom DiMaggio.

I saw all those guys play; and, the 2nd team I rooted for when I was a kid was the Red Sox....since I was an avid Ted Williams fan.

Incidentally, it's my understanding that Ted Williams campaigned strongly for Phil Rizzuto to be in the HOF.


TED Z
.

[sago]

Ted,
I clearly stated when reaching base and OBP, both which count walks. I am sure you have fond memories of him, but the facts stand.

[tedzan]

Hey guy

Yes, the facts stand....as Ted Williams said: Rizzuto was a key player in the 8 - Championships the Yankees had from 1941 - 1953.

And, what stands even greater is that Rizzuto is in the HOF.


If you want to play the numbers game, we list quite a number of HOFer's that have less successful numbers than Rizzuto.


TED Z
.

[sago]

Sorry I called you out on the numbers you stated as fact, and that HOF criteria is now
Ted Williams saying yes, and your opinion.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tedzan

He scored 805 Runs during this 10-year period. That's a pretty good number for a "non-power" Lead-off hitter.
[/B]
.

It really isn't. 80 runs a year skewed by 30% of them being crammed into two outstanding years. He had 5 full seasons under 70 runs during his career.

[SteveMitchell]

I like the Two Teds' response better than mine but I'll share it anyway:

Some believe the National Baseball Hall of Fame ought to include more than the first 25 or so players. If nearly 20,000 played big league baseball (and a few thousand others were barred but were of MLB quality), then a reasonable HOF membership might be 3-5 percent, perhaps less. If 2% is right, then there ought to be 350-400 players enshrined. (I didn't count them but, exclusive of officials, umps, etc., there are a whole lot less than 350 players as members.) Therefore, Phil Rizzuto belongs - he just got there a little before he "should" have, according to some folks. Like I said, I like Ted Z's and Ted W's answer better. (See below if you missed it.)

Originally Posted by tedzan

Some of the comments here are laughable. Most of you never met Phil Rizzuto; or, never saw him play the game

I grew up in Hillside, NJ in the 1940's and 1950's. Phil's house was 2 blocks away from us. He was a great role model for us kids in the neighborhood.

Monday nites at St. Catherine's school, Phil would get together with us and "Talk Baseball" for a couple of hours. He would give us pointers on how to
be an effective Lead-off batter and how to field our positions....answered a lot of our questions on the ballplayers of that era....and, had a great sense
of humor.

Yes, I saw Phil play from 1947 - 1956. He was great Lead-off guy, who exceeded the "Lead-off constant" associated with Lead-off batters. And, that is
if the lead-off batter in any given inning gets on base, he will score 75 % of the time (barring a double-play). This factor has been a constant in BB.....
since the beginning of the 20th Century.

Hopefully some of you may appreciate me sharing this with you. Whatever, but I don't expect you to be convinced otherwise by this Ted's words.

Here are the words of another Ted (Williams)....who personally told me (in Cooperstown in the 1980's)...... "if Phil Rizzuto played for us (Red SOX) all
those years, we would have been the Champions, instead of the Yankees".

Now, how can you argue with that statement ?


TED Z
.