Why is Jackie Robinson in the HOF?

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

No it's not, because had been born white he would have likely played 5-7 years more at least. This topic, while you guys are free to debate it if you like, is horribly stupid.

That's a assumption.many major leaguers don't get a chance until they are older. So let me ask this same exact career but he was white . Is Jackie Robinson a hall of famer?

[packs]

Jackie Robinson changed the entire landscape of major league baseball and American society in general. Even if you want to play the stats game, no single player has had the impact on the game that he had. So he's in no matter what.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

That's a assumption.many major leaguers don't get a chance until they are older. So let me ask this same exact career but he was white . Is Jackie Robinson a hall of famer?

It's not the same career. At all. You can't change the most fundamental part of his career and then compare. If you don't understand how monumental what he accomplished was then you're not in an educated position to argue HOF induction IMO.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

It's not the same career. At all. You can't change the most fundamental part of his career and then compare. If you don't understand how monumental what he accomplished was then you're not in an educated position to argue HOF induction IMO.

Haha so then you answered the question BOOM! Thanks

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Haha so then you answered the question BOOM! Thanks

+ 1

[sbfinley]

I give up. Best wishes and happy collecting.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I give up. Best wishes and happy collecting.

I'm with you. Any position that holds Jackie Robinson is unworthy of the Hall of Fame is untenable.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[mark evans]

I'm no statistics guru, simply too lazy to put out the time and effort. In Robinson's case, it appears that arguments can be made both for and against induction. BUT, when one factors in the other standards that are required to be considered by those who elect the players, I think his induction becomes a no-brainer. Having said that, I'm not in any way offended by the initial post which appears to have stimulated a healthy debate.

[RichardSimon]

Jackie had a .609 winning percentage in games he started.
4th highest of post war players.
He made his teams much better and he was a winner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

That's a assumption.many major leaguers don't get a chance until they are older. So let me ask this same exact career but he was white . Is Jackie Robinson a hall of famer?

Yes, obviously. Ya think as a player he might be a little better than Mazeroski and Schoendienst and Fox?

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, obviously. Ya think as a player he might be a little better than Mazeroski and Schoendienst and Fox?

Well I believe most ball players need a eye test . You know if you just seen Ozzie smiths stats you might say this guy sucked . But when you see him play that's not the case at all . So I've never seen anyone the players mentioned play.

I know a lot of people question Bill Mazeroski as do I . But the other two seem to be more on the Ozzie smith side of things. With being outstanding defensively.

I rather compare to players I've seen like a Don mattingly or a will Clark. But let's compare him to a Jeff Kent from age 28 .

Jeff Kent from 28 to 37 year old . 1611 hits /HR 277 /2B 383/ RBI 1049
Jackie Robinson 28 to 37 years old . 1518hits/ HR 137/2B 273 / RBI 734

[Peter_Spaeth]

You need to adjust those stats for the era though. Jackie is fifth all time at 2B in WAR7 (best seven year stretch). Kent is 27th.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You need to adjust those stats for the era though. Jackie is fifth all time at 2B in WAR7 (best seven year stretch). Kent is 27th.

I'm not sure what you mean. The stats are the stats the played the same game and position.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I'm not sure what you mean. The stats are the stats the played the same game and position.

Statistics are relative to an era. If the average player in the 90s hit 30 HR, and the average player in the 50s hit 20 (hypothetical), then hitting 20 in the 50s is the same as hitting 30 in the 90s. Stats like WAR are compiled on an era-adjusted basis to account for these sorts of differences. Kent's numbers relative to the era in which he played are actually nowhere near Jackie's.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Statistics are relative to an era. If the average player in the 90s hit 30 HR, and the average player in the 50s hit 20 (hypothetical), then hitting 20 in the 50s is the same as hitting 30 in the 90s. Stats like WAR are compiled on an era-adjusted basis to account for these sorts of differences. Kent's numbers relative to the era in which he played are actually nowhere near Jackie's.

Aaah thanks Pete I see what your saying. I don't want this to morph into best way to judge a player discussion.but I'm sure it's arguable . So does this mean that Cobb has more hits then Rose ? Or Ruth has more homeruns then Aaron ?

I get it I do but it's hard for me to get past the numbers . Kent was playing against roided up modern athletes.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I'm not sure what you mean. The stats are the stats the played the same game and position.

You cherry picked a few stats. Why don't you compare batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, Ops, OPS+ and WAR?

Kent .290/.356/.500/.855 OPS +123 WAR 55 for 17 seasons

Robinson .311/.409/.474/.883 OPS+ 132 WAR 61 for only 10 seasons.

Robinson did more in 10 seasons than Kent in 17 despite the few stats you cherry picked.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So let me ask this same exact career but he was white . Is Jackie Robinson a hall of famer?

Had Jackie Robinson been white, he simply could not have had the exact same career. Not even close.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

That's a assumption.many major leaguers don't get a chance until they are older. So let me ask this same exact career but he was white . Is Jackie Robinson a hall of famer?

Ralph Kiner had a WAR of 49, played 10 years, over lapping 9 with Jackie. Robinson had a WAR of 61. Kiner was white and made the hof, so I don't see how you could argue Jackie wouldn't have.

[TNP777]

Like others, I appreciate any discussion and debate.

Saying that, I'm somewhat dismayed that this particular thing is even debatable. Many, many excellent points have been made in support of Jackie's inclusion in the HOF.

* couldn't play until he was 28. That puts a guy like Bryce Harper 10 years ahead of him in compiling stats (yeah, Harper's an OF - just picked a name out of the air). If the OP wants to argue against inclusion based on stats, this single fact alone trumps his argument. Take the first 8-10 years away from any HOFer's career and see what his stats look like.
* hatred/taunts/death threats from damn near everyone around him, including the guys in his own dugout (maybe minus the death threats from teammates).
* opposing players openly trying to injure him
* had the temperament to deal with the above for two years before he was allowed to stand up for himself. Remained a man of character and restraint despite the intense opposition.
* hugely important in the Civil Rights movement.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by TNP777

Like others, I appreciate any discussion and debate.

Saying that, I'm somewhat dismayed that this particular thing is even debatable. Many, many excellent points have been made in support of Jackie's inclusion in the HOF.

* couldn't play until he was 28. That puts a guy like Bryce Harper 10 years ahead of him in compiling stats (yeah, Harper's an OF - just picked a name out of the air). If the OP wants to argue against inclusion based on stats, this single fact alone trumps his argument. Take the first 8-10 years away from any HOFer's career and see what his stats look like.
* hatred/taunts/death threats from damn near everyone around him, including the guys in his own dugout (maybe minus the death threats from teammates).
* opposing players openly trying to injure him
* had the temperament to deal with the above for two years before he was allowed to stand up for himself. Remained a man of character and restraint despite the intense opposition.
* hugely important in the Civil Rights movement.

+ a $hitload.

[vintagesportscollector]

When comparing running/track times, you can’t compare today’s athletes to yesterdays. As mentioned there are many reasons why today’s athletes are overall more fit, athletic, and faster. In 1954 Roger Bannister was the first to break the 4 minute mile. A feat that at the time seemed unacheivable by some, and made Bannister a global phenomenon. Since then almost 1500 people have broken the 4 minute mile – in 2015 there were 23 Americans alone who did it.

[slipk1068]

I haven't read this thread. Doing so would probably take a couple hours. I have a pretty good idea of what opinions are likely expressed, so I will offer my opinion without reading this thread.

I felt similar to the OP when I was in my 20's. Jackie Robinson is only in the HOF because he is the first black ballplayer. I thought that was ridiculous.

In the last 30 years I have learned a lot and completely changed my opinion. He put up huge HOF worthy numbers in the short period of time he was allowed to play. The intangibles like the way he must have gotten into a pitchers head any time he was on base are immeasurable. I can't imagine any other person would have been able to endure the stuff he had to put up with.

I have learned a lot about base ball history and life in the last 30 years. Jackie Robinson is number 3 on my short list of human beings I admire most. I suspect if the OP continues to be a student of the game's history, in 20 years or so he will rank Jackie Robinson as a top-tier HOFer.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I haven't read this thread. Doing so would probably take a couple hours. I have a pretty good idea of what opinions are likely expressed, so I will offer my opinion without reading this thread.

I felt similar to the OP when I was in my 20's. Jackie Robinson is only in the HOF because he is the first black ballplayer. I thought that was ridiculous.

In the last 30 years I have learned a lot and completely changed my opinion. He put up huge HOF worthy numbers in the short period of time he was allowed to play. The intangibles like the way he must have gotten into a pitchers head any time he was on base are immeasurable. I can't imagine any other person would have been able to endure the stuff he had to put up with.

I have learned a lot about base ball history and life in the last 30 years. Jackie Robinson is number 3 on my short list of human beings I admire most. I suspect if the OP continues to be a student of the game's history, in 20 years or so he will rank Jackie Robinson as a top-tier HOFer.

Great post, David. I've done quite a bit of growing up in the past 30 years myself. A great many beliefs I thought were valid then seem pretty silly now.

As I type, I'm listening to a great monologue by Bomani Jones on ESPN. He's hitting many of the same points already brought up here, including how tough it was in his own clubhouse.

OP, did you happen to catch the 2-part documentary that just showed on PBS? If not, do yourself a favor and check it out. I think it might be enlightening. It certainly was to me.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by TNP777

Like others, I appreciate any discussion and debate.

Saying that, I'm somewhat dismayed that this particular thing is even debatable. Many, many excellent points have been made in support of Jackie's inclusion in the HOF.

* couldn't play until he was 28. That puts a guy like Bryce Harper 10 years ahead of him in compiling stats (yeah, Harper's an OF - just picked a name out of the air). If the OP wants to argue against inclusion based on stats, this single fact alone trumps his argument. Take the first 8-10 years away from any HOFer's career and see what his stats look like.
* hatred/taunts/death threats from damn near everyone around him, including the guys in his own dugout (maybe minus the death threats from teammates).
* opposing players openly trying to injure him
* had the temperament to deal with the above for two years before he was allowed to stand up for himself. Remained a man of character and restraint despite the intense opposition.
* hugely important in the Civil Rights movement.

+ 1 billion
This thread is nuts.

[arc2q]

If I had woken up with my head stapled to the carpet I would not be more surprised than I am right now. I never would have fathomed that there was even a debate about Jackie Robinson's worthiness for the Hall of Fame.