Payment at card shows?

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you understand this simple concept, then how in the world can you blame a dealer for not accepting a $6K credit card charge and leave himself vulnerable to a charge back?

I understand this concept, but your argument seems to indicate that the seller should take on all the risk. EVERYONE takes a risk in any transaction, and we all know the inherent risks in collectibles, including forgeries, alterations, etc.

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present. Based on that, making a decision to not process cards at shows for the fear of a chargeback is like not going on a tropical vacation because you're afraid of flying. Ill informed at best.

The larger antagonistic attitude on this issue also hits home how I've felt at some card shops and with some sellers at shows. I'll never be the person with $6k in my pocket or in my checking account to spend at a show, but I would hope that purchases of any level would be welcome and that sellers would want to work with me on making a sale happen. The "my way or the highway" attitude is counterproductive and those sellers could use a reminder that they potentially aren't just turning away one sale, but perhaps repeat business. Sure, you might sell that $6,000 to another willing buyer, but you also might have lost many thousands more by not working with the first one.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

How would the buyer get scammed? Don't dealers allow a potential buyer to inspect a card before they buy it? Certainly they do. It's up to the buyer to do their homework before purchasing a card in person.

And counterfeit currency? OK, you're really grasping for straws now. They sell these at Sam's which pretty much eliminates the risk of the seller accepting counterfeit currency...

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sharpie...prod4960410.ip

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How would the buyer get scammed? Don't dealers allow a potential buyer to inspect a card before they buy it? Certainly they do. It's up to the buyer to do their homework before purchasing a card in person.

And counterfeit currency? OK, you're really grasping for straws now. They sell these at Sam's which pretty much eliminates the risk of the seller accepting counterfeit currency...

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sharpie...prod4960410.ip

So you're contending that a buyer has NEVER been scammed at a show before? There has NEVER been an occasion when a dealer scammed someone?

And you're calling my counterfeit currency argument "grasping for straws" when your earlier note about the potential for chargebacks happens less than .1 percent of the time?

Pot, meet kettle!

If by "grasping at straws" you mean I'm looking at something that's such a small percentage of transactions it probably isn't worth worrying about it, I think you're right. And it's exactly the same "grasping at straws" argument that you make when outlining the risk of a chargeback.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

So you're contending that a buyer has NEVER been scammed at a show before? There has NEVER been an occasion when a dealer scammed someone?

No, I'm not contending that. Did I say that? No. You want to put words in my mouth, so after this post I am done debating with you.

I inferred it is the buyers responsibility to look over the card(s) before the purchase. Likewise, if a dealer accepts a large sum of cash, he has a responsibility to make sure its not counterfeit.

As far as your ridiculous question goes, yes buyers have been scammed at showx before. It happened to one of our board members and the dealer was Gizmo's Sportscards. IIRC, the buyer made a very large purchase at a show and later realized the cards had been altered (trimmed I believe). But the buyer took full responsibility for not examining the cards closer. He still outed the dealer (as he should have) to make future buyers beware.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No, I'm not contending that. Did I say that? No. You want to put words in my mouth, so after this post I am done debating with you.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to get you to clarify your argument.

I'm eager to dispense with the hostile tone, so lets be done.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How would the buyer get scammed? Don't dealers allow a potential buyer to inspect a card before they buy it? Certainly they do. It's up to the buyer to do their homework before purchasing a card in person.



And counterfeit currency? OK, you're really grasping for straws now. They sell these at Sam's which pretty much eliminates the risk of the seller accepting counterfeit currency...



http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sharpie...prod4960410.ip

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may...-counterfeit14

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may...-counterfeit14

Interesting. From the article..."Authorities say the hair product is commonly used to coat fake bills to block the counterfeit-detecting pens used by merchants."

However, if I were a dealer at a show selling a $6K card, I would worry less about counterfeit currency than I would a credit card charge back. That't just my opinion.

[edhans]

I'm a little offended by the suggestion that all show dealers who accept only cash, do so to avoid paying income and sales taxes. I report my sales and income and pay my taxes. I know many dealers do the same. I choose not to accept electronic payments, in part because of the costs, but primarily for the potential chargeback problems. I have a regular job and don't have the time to fight with a credit card company over a chargeback, justified or not. And since I don't put food on my table by selling cards, I would much rather walk away from a sale than take an electronic payment and hope the customer doesn't get buyers remorse.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thanks, Ed, for your perspective as a dealer and for bringing back some common sense to this thread.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I understand this concept, but your argument seems to indicate that the seller should take on all the risk. EVERYONE takes a risk in any transaction, and we all know the inherent risks in collectibles, including forgeries, alterations, etc.

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present. Based on that, making a decision to not process cards at shows for the fear of a chargeback is like not going on a tropical vacation because you're afraid of flying. Ill informed at best.

The larger antagonistic attitude on this issue also hits home how I've felt at some card shops and with some sellers at shows. I'll never be the person with $6k in my pocket or in my checking account to spend at a show, but I would hope that purchases of any level would be welcome and that sellers would want to work with me on making a sale happen. The "my way or the highway" attitude is counterproductive and those sellers could use a reminder that they potentially aren't just turning away one sale, but perhaps repeat business. Sure, you might sell that $6,000 to another willing buyer, but you also might have lost many thousands more by not working with the first one.

+1 very well written and 100% agree

[packs]

I agree that dealers can approach the sales portion of their business any way they like and there is no right or wrong way. But when it comes to myself, anyone who doesn't accept cards will lose my business every time.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I agree that dealers can approach the sales portion of their business any way they like and there is no right or wrong way. But when it comes to myself, anyone who doesn't accept cards will lose my business every time.

Dont you think you get a better deal paying with cash?

[packs]

Maybe. I like going to shows because I don't get to be around people into cards very often. So it's a good time for me just walking around and checking stuff out, dropping off cards for grading. But because I don't actually buy something that often I don't take a lot of cash with me. I am a serious buyer though if I find that item. It would be with my debit card though.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm really surprised we haven't heard from more dealers on this issue. Perhaps they just don't want to speak up. I did find this old thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rd+charge+back

It does happen.

And to clear up some misinformation posted earlier, yes the charge back rate is less than .1 percent. However on purchases over $2500, the charge back rate jumps to nearly 3.5%. How convenient that was left out. And I bet if more research wete conducted, it would show that charge back percentages are even higher at hobby/trade shows.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm really surprised we haven't heard from more dealers on this issue. Perhaps they just don't want to speak up. I did find this old thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rd+charge+back

It does happen.

And to clear up some misinformation posted earlier, yes the charge back rate is less than .1 percent. However on purchases over $2500, the charge back rate jumps to nearly 3.5%. How convenient that was left out. And I bet if more research wete conducted, it would show that charge back percentages are even higher at hobby/trade shows.

Apparently things are not left well enough alone.

Lets clear up the real misinformation, as I posted:

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present.

This information came from this page:
https://www.quora.com/Online-Payment...rate-in-the-US

Vintagetoppsguy apparently found this page, which includes this nugget:
"Amount over $2400-$2500 mark suddenly experiences a surge and it is almost 3.0% to 3.5%"

But Vintagetoppsguy either didn't read the page or is purposefully being deceptive because that nugget follows this clarification:

"For Card Not Present Transactions: The chargeback rate is very interesting:"

That is: For transactions without credit cards, chargeback rates are between 3 and 3.5 percent.

I quoted for when credit cards ARE present, which is clearly what we are talking about when it comes to purchasing cards and memorabilia at shows. The higher percentage is when cards are not present, such as eBay, etc.

I'm happy to keep an informed and respectful conversation going, but describing the information I posted earlier about chargeback rates as "misinformation" is either an egregious mistake where Vintagetoppsguy failed to comprehend the web page or an accusation intended solely to deceive.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How convenient that was left out.

Yes, how convenient that I left out statistics that were immaterial to the conversation so you can take them out of context.