Are you obligated to give a refund after an item is lost in the mail

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

It is the seller's responsibility to ensure the item arrives in the condition described.

+2 .. Hey Josh, legally it comes down to this and what others have mentioned along the same lines. We can debate all day about ethics, history, proof, etc. but this is the bottom line. Legally, a contract between two parties requires both sides receive what was agreed upon. If seller is paid and buyer doesn't get what was paid for, there is breach - regardless of whatever 3rd party (in this case, USPS) didn't fulfill - - the responsibility falls to the seller until buyer receives what was contracted for.

I remember not that long ago the occasional notations from eBay sellers about not responsible for items lost/damaged, not responsible if buyer doesn't take insurance, etc. They put a stop to that some time ago. I think David noted in those cases, you can't prove delivery - you lose.

One other note - buying $200 worth of insurance (as an example) on a card you sold for that amount won't likely get you that back from USPS (or UPS for that matter) if they lose/damage. There's some limited liability on paper products, perishable as well as proof of value you must provide beyond what someone paid for it. I found that out the hard way on a watch sold to someone in Canada for $200, insured for that amount - USPS/Canada post loses it and in the end I got a check back for $45. Insult to injury - eBay still charged me the FVF @10% of the $200

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

+2 .. Hey Josh, legally it comes down to this and what others have mentioned along the same lines. We can debate all day about ethics, history, proof, etc. but this is the bottom line. Legally, a contract between two parties requires both sides receive what was agreed upon. If seller is paid and buyer doesn't get what was paid for, there is breach - regardless of whatever 3rd party (in this case, USPS) didn't fulfill - - the responsibility falls to the seller until buyer receives what was contracted for.

I remember not that long ago the occasional notations from eBay sellers about not responsible for items lost/damaged, not responsible if buyer doesn't take insurance, etc. They put a stop to that some time ago. I think David noted in those cases, you can't prove delivery - you lose.

One other note - buying $200 worth of insurance (as an example) on a card you sold for that amount won't likely get you that back from USPS (or UPS for that matter) if they lose/damage. There's some limited liability on paper products, perishable as well as proof of value you must provide beyond what someone paid for it. I found that out the hard way on a watch sold to someone in Canada for $200, insured for that amount - USPS/Canada post loses it and in the end I got a check back for $45. Insult to injury - eBay still charged me the FVF @10% of the $200

That is not my understanding of the law in general. What do you base that on? As we discussed here recently, the general/default rule under the Uniform Commercial Code is that risk of loss passes to the buyer upon delivery of the goods to a common carrier. That said, the right thing is obviously to refund the money, and if it's an ebay transaction their own rules would apply anyhow.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=carrier

[Joshchisox08]

UPDATE #2

He got back to me and said that his post office tried delivering it and couldn't because he wasn't home. He said that they did not put a missed delivery in his mail box.

I offered him a full refund or if he still wants the card the card and obviously a refunded shipping.

He appears to still want the card I apologized and said that if I get the card by Friday I would mail it out with some additional cards free of charge for this hassle. He seems to like this solution. In the end I guess I learned the lesson about shipping in general.

Still wonder why the post office wouldn't just leave it in my mailbox with a note or something. It seems like that could avoid a lot of hassle for everyone.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Still wonder why the post office wouldn't just leave it in my mailbox with a note or something. It seems like that could avoid a lot of hassle for everyone.

Probably because it's postage due. The USPS does not trust its customers as much as you trust your buyers and will not just leave a postage due package with a note to come to the post office when you have a chance and pay the extra $0.42 you owe them. They should have left a note (and may have and it was just overlooked), but they won't just leave the package that situation.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Probably because it's postage due. The USPS does not trust its customers as much as you trust your buyers and will not just leave a postage due package with a note to come to the post office when you have a chance and pay the extra $0.42 you owe them. They should have left a note (and may have and it was just overlooked), but they won't just leave the package that situation.

I actually received a small package in the mail once, in my mailbox, that had postage due. They left a little envelope asking for about 20 cents. I put the change in and left it in the box but thought it was unusual. Saved me a trip to the post office at least.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I actually received a small package in the mail once, in my mailbox, that had postage due. They left a little envelope asking for about 20 cents. I put the change in and left it in the box but thought it was unusual. Saved me a trip to the post office at least.

I've had that happen a couple times in the past as well, but nothing recently (the last number of years). I think it's more up to the carrier (or the area) and whether they know you, and/or 'covering' the cost him/her self if you don't pony up.

[Gradedcardman]

Never ship without tracking. EBay will never side in your favor without it. I also would only ship via Net54 with tracking as well.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That is not my understanding of the law in general. What do you base that on? As we discussed here recently, the general/default rule under the Uniform Commercial Code is that risk of loss passes to the buyer upon delivery of the goods to a common carrier. That said, the right thing is obviously to refund the money, and if it's an ebay transaction their own rules would apply anyhow.

I wasn't aware of the previous discussion on the subject. I thought that the UCC common carrier article only applies where there is no breach, which can be interpreted as a contractual obligation "not fulfilled". Since this transaction was not fulfilled, a breach of contract could at least be claimed. It was my understanding that in these cases and/or where the UCC does not govern, superseded by host rules (IE: eBay) if the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss.

Side note: My understanding was also that the UCC is not adopted in all jurisdictions, has many disputed articles and interpretations as well. To what extent, I'm not sure .. I'm not a lawyer, so I may indeed stand corrected. I've had some previous experience in this area which led to my general understanding and interpretation. I guess if push came to shove, I wouldn't want (or expect) the UCC common carrier interpretation to be my sole crutch.

All that aside, IMO the bottom line goes back to what you and others have noted about doing the right thing and in this case, moot as eBay rules will govern. The buyer is backed unless proof of delivery and in same condition are provided.

[martyp]

I have had two different sellers send me items in a flat envelope that required me to go to the Post Office window an pay additional postage. If there is something that is too thick or rigid and the PO employee feels that it may get damaged in the machine, they cancel the stamps by hand which is an up charge. This will stop the envelope from being delivered.

If it does go into the machine, there is a possibility that the rollers will get caught on what every is inside and damage the envelope. If the address gets damaged, they do not know where it goes.

Sounds like your card may have been hand cancelled and the buyer will have to pay the additional postage after they stand in line at the PO.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

+2 .. Hey Josh, legally it comes down to this and what others have mentioned along the same lines. We can debate all day about ethics, history, proof, etc. but this is the bottom line. Legally, a contract between two parties requires both sides receive what was agreed upon. If seller is paid and buyer doesn't get what was paid for, there is breach - regardless of whatever 3rd party (in this case, USPS) didn't fulfill - - the responsibility falls to the seller until buyer receives what was contracted for.



I remember not that long ago the occasional notations from eBay sellers about not responsible for items lost/damaged, not responsible if buyer doesn't take insurance, etc. They put a stop to that some time ago. I think David noted in those cases, you can't prove delivery - you lose.



One other note - buying $200 worth of insurance (as an example) on a card you sold for that amount won't likely get you that back from USPS (or UPS for that matter) if they lose/damage. There's some limited liability on paper products, perishable as well as proof of value you must provide beyond what someone paid for it. I found that out the hard way on a watch sold to someone in Canada for $200, insured for that amount - USPS/Canada post loses it and in the end I got a check back for $45. Insult to injury - eBay still charged me the FVF @10% of the $200

A few years ago I sold an autographed photo on eBay and shipped it with insurance. It arrived damaged, so after the buyer sent me a picture of said damage, I submitted a claim online to USPS. It took a while, but they paid the full amount (eBay winning bid) of the claim to the buyer. He was very happy and gave me positive feedback.