Wilt da Stilt gamer/Tiernan jersey info

[mickeymao34]

Ended at 34k not including juice...with juice 40k.. this figure way low for a wilt piece. Legit wilt gamer would surpass 70k easy. But still i feel for the poor dude who has to cut that check.40k aint no chump change. What gets me is the AH's analysis to other examples of Tiernan Laker shirts. If this was researched correctly this does not correlate to given examples spec wise. Most unfortunate. Renege is an option and def part of the biz.

[mickeymao34]

So it looks like another Magic has hit AH market with current bid of 8500. IMO it is the same jersey as the one I used as an example as to what a replica looks like. And it has a Mears A10 stamp of approval! How do they justify a A10 grade? Again, there is ZERO images/pics in existence that would support the Lakers (any player A-Z in Tiernan era) ever to wear a shirt with this type of number font PERIOD. Is anybody seeing the correlations of strings of A10s and AHs????????

[perezfan]

Have you called or written Mears directly? I would think that in order to justify the A10 grade, they'd have to produce at least a few images of this style being worn in games.

And if you did correspond with them, what was their response? Very curious to know, as lots of $$$ obviously at stake. Great thread!

[dwightclarkJ]

I agree a very interesting thread. I have some game used stuff but far from a expert. Just out of curiosity myself i emailed them a link to this thread.
Clark.

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

I have received some questions about the grade we assigned the Wilt Chamberlain shirt. As always, I am always glad to share my process for which I applied to render an opinion. It is always my hopes that after my opinion has been published and the methodology and references are supplied that you agree with my findings. If not, that is okay too, but you will always know how and why MEARS rendered an opinion.

Per the original post, I believe the following questions were asked:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Going in order, I addressed each point:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

Based on the images I used to evaluate the Chamberlain shirt, my research when comparing to available image determined:

Answer 1: The placement of the LAKERS logo varied from high to low in conjunction with the bottom of the neck line. See images.

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

Answer 2: Based on my answer to question 1, it would change the placement of the spacing. My images supported more space between the bottom of the word LAKERS and the top of the 13. The poster uses a 1980 magic Johnson photo when examining a early 1970s Lakers shirt, and in my opinion, the variation between the Chamberlain and the Magic is justified via photographic evidence.

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Answer 3: The indentation is often present, but these numbers were hand cut. With Magic, Wilt, and Jabbar ordering and using more shirts that their teammates, it is reasonable to assume more variations of the numbering when hand cut could occur. The Magic shirt shows no indentication, and the third Chamberlain shows either no indentation or a very little one. (see graphic Wilt Chamberlain Front Comparison, last image)


What I know about Lakers shirts and hope I have illustrated here are there are many variations with respect to LAKERS placement and numbering style/placement.

At the end of the day the original poster may not agree with my final conclusion and that is right. It is my hope that readers were able to follow the MEARS process and see how we came to the conclusion we did.

This post is also in response to the Magic Johnson shirt currently being offered by Heritage Auctions and hope that the provided image of Magic without the indentations in the numbering supports that opinion also.

Regards,

Troy R. Kinunen – Memorabilia Evaluations and Research Services

(414) 828 -9990, troy@mearsonline.com

wilt front response 1-1.jpg

[perezfan]

Thanks for posting.

Do we know for a fact that the "no notch" photo matches are Tiernan Jerseys?

Wasn't there an alternate supplier? Is there evidence of a Tiernan Jersey without the notched shadowing?

Just want to be clear on this key point.... Thanks!

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

Yes, the referenced examples are Tiernan shirts. In 1986 the Lakers switched to Sand Knit, but those would be found with the NBA logo on the front shoulder since that was the season the logo was mandated by the league.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by MEARSAUCTIONS

I have received some questions about the grade we assigned the Wilt Chamberlain shirt. As always, I am always glad to share my process for which I applied to render an opinion. It is always my hopes that after my opinion has been published and the methodology and references are supplied that you agree with my findings. If not, that is okay too, but you will always know how and why MEARS rendered an opinion.

Per the original post, I believe the following questions were asked:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Going in order, I addressed each point:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

Based on the images I used to evaluate the Chamberlain shirt, my research when comparing to available image determined:

Answer 1: The placement of the LAKERS logo varied from high to low in conjunction with the bottom of the neck line. See images.

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

Answer 2: Based on my answer to question 1, it would change the placement of the spacing. My images supported more space between the bottom of the word LAKERS and the top of the 13. The poster uses a 1980 magic Johnson photo when examining a early 1970s Lakers shirt, and in my opinion, the variation between the Chamberlain and the Magic is justified via photographic evidence.

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Answer 3: The indentation is often present, but these numbers were hand cut. With Magic, Wilt, and Jabbar ordering and using more shirts that their teammates, it is reasonable to assume more variations of the numbering when hand cut could occur. The Magic shirt shows no indentication, and the third Chamberlain shows either no indentation or a very little one. (see graphic Wilt Chamberlain Front Comparison, last image)


What I know about Lakers shirts and hope I have illustrated here are there are many variations with respect to LAKERS placement and numbering style/placement.

At the end of the day the original poster may not agree with my final conclusion and that is right. It is my hope that readers were able to follow the MEARS process and see how we came to the conclusion we did.

This post is also in response to the Magic Johnson shirt currently being offered by Heritage Auctions and hope that the provided image of Magic without the indentations in the numbering supports that opinion also.

Regards,

Troy R. Kinunen – Memorabilia Evaluations and Research Services

(414) 828 -9990, troy@mearsonline.com

Attachment 221402

How about Troy furthering this discussion and his points by replacing the low resolution auction listing picture of the Magic jersey in question in the current HA auction to a high resolution picture.

Its annoying that with all of todays technology that issues like this exist where when you increase the size of sum auction house listing pictures they distort to the point that you can't tell anything. GFC also uses the same type of annoying pictures in their auctions.

Troy thanks for your understanding

Ron Kosiewicz

[mickeymao34]

Ron, I do believe you are referring to this "example" pic. This example pic falls under the criteria of post #1 of this thread. It does in fact have indentations (notch) on top and bottom of 3 and top of 2. The picture that Mears provided is ambiguous and distorted due to it being blown up version of a low resolution picture (IMO even though its a low resolution pic the notch can still be noted in that pic). Also the example pic that Mears provided does not even come close to the spacing issues noted in post #1 (spacing tween bottom of number and top of L in Lakers is always small to virtually none-again NO photos exist in Magic era to refute this). In addition the whole picture should have been included which will show Big Game James standing next to him with also a 42 font that follows criteria of post #1. Pics to follow. I have high resolution pics of this exact jersey from many different games including, I believe, the NBA Finals. Also the Wilt pic he provided is distorted and ambiguous and the spacing does not even come close to style matching to his example. That jersey also has the indentations (notch) per post #1. example pics to follow. I will go further, as stated before, that there is NO pics in existence of any players A-Z that exhibits letter fonts as those jerseys of the Wilt and Magic in question. Find me ONE quality pic of ANY player A-Z wearing that style of font (sand knit era font) and I will call it all good. BUT none exist! I have had discussions with equip mgrs. from both Tiernan era and Sand knit era. He stated that in tiernan era players were issued 2 homes and 2 roads and that was the stars! Lesser players were issued 1 home and 1 road as verified to me by player Clay Johnson. Magic played 7 years (79/80 to 85/86) wearing Tiernan and even if he was issued 4 home per season there should be ~28 legit home Magics-and that's being liberal b/c,as stated before, many years they were issued 2 homes and 2 roads. So NO WAY all these home lakers Magics could have been possibly have been worn. If you goggle the topic there is a multitude of these types (wrong font) of Tiernans from many different auctions. I have included in this post 2 other examples of questionable shirts with wrong letter fonts with the traits of washed out tiernan tag and which shows little wear to the letter and numbers with exception to the over-bleeding of the gold onto letters and numbers. It is my understanding that the late Bernard Tiernan sold many blank Lakers jerseys to whomever wanted them and many of these were added with the wrong font (sand knit era fonts)..many of these entered the hobby. These questionable Tiernan jerseys were offered and sold in great numbers in the 90s prior to advent of the internet. Thorough research was very tough task back then. Again pics are coming. I have been a collector of Lakers cards and game used jerseys for many many years. The education process for game worn Laker jerseys has been a expensive time consuming one.