the list (of criminals) is revealed

edited per name rules....no anonymous bashing

[sago]

With apologies to Mad Magazine and Wacky Packages:

New Halls of Blame article

Baseball forum website owner, Leon Luckey, who reportedly was in line for a Presidential Cabinet position until this website exposed the news that he once inhaled some helium out of a balloon, is now stuck running his site full of cronies and sycophants, and deleting this author's fake accounts.

In other news, Boston bar owner Rob Lifson, is reportedly retiring to the Cayman Islands, where he can freely access the billion dollars he possesses, acquired from the materials he stole from the Smithsonian when he was 8, including the first molecule formed during the Big Bang, as well as the only proof that man and dinosaurs roamed the Earth together.

As for this reporter, I will once again be leading the world's most successful rap group on a world tour, including:

Cooperstown (Valley)Forge (r)

[Brian Van Horn]

In accord with full disclosure, I have used the following from a current eBay listing to sum up my opinion on the subject matter of this thread:

[h2oya311]

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Exactly my experience, Derek. I wondered why items I consigned the felonious selling crew went for eBay prices when other items were through the roof. Now I know.

BTW, Brian, that Ruth is a great card.

[4815162342]

So... what's the solution to this mess?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So... what's the solution to this mess?

I doubt anything meaningful will happen to fix the problem unless legislation is passed and/or enforcement becomes more widespread. Like another stated however many posts ago, the pervasiveness of auction house shilling is not surprising.

There are of course transparency steps that Auction Houses could utilize, but won't, in some perceived name of privacy. As wonderful as this hobby can be, it is filthy, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I would bet more people are worried about the financial impact it might have on their collections than on the company they keep.

[packs]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So... what's the solution to this mess?

I think the only solution is to make this practice so egregious that no one ever tries it again. That would mean ceasing all bidding with anyone associated with shilling. That would also mean ceasing all business with a TPG that contributed to the shilling, as well as making questionable conflict of interest decisions re: grading and selling their own cards. I'd also only bid in increments of one, which will drive down all prices and extend bidding longer, which will also probably drive away prospective bidders.

All in all it seems as though shilling will cost people (AH and TPGs) more money than they ever stood to gain. These opinions are meant to be taken broadly. I am not singling out any one person / company / business.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So... what's the solution to this mess?

Keep in mind that this is in no way isolated to our hobby. This is a systemic problem with phone/internet auctions across as many hobbies as have them. The fruit is just too low hanging. And, to continue my tree analogy, the roots of the auction industry, TPG industry, and collectors' love for this hobby are so intertwined, that at this point paring back any one too much may kill all three.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

right the fact that victim was 'legit' and was able to pay a certain price means that maybe in a direct deal that victim would of maybe paid that same price.....we also went through the scenario that another legit buyer may of been out there but the bidding slot was already taken by the first legit buyer so the card may not of even needed to be shilled..

perhaps the other poster here just thought their cards were worth more than they really are and was hoping for magic with an auction.....its not the first time a seller would overvalue a card and not sell it in a direct deal and then get disappointing results at an AH..

now if the the shilled cards were exactly the same card visually and from the same grade of a card that was submitted and sold for 'next to nothing'..then i think that's a different story..

but in reality the non shilled cards were being sold at legit market price...