the list (of criminals) is revealed

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by mooch

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

what is 'cheap' sometimes becomes more expensive....1952 Mantle PSA 1s 3 years ago were a loot cheaper then they are now..

I do enjoy though in the past buying cards graded where the grading costs had to be more than the card...

[Republicaninmass]

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

++++ Basically what I was trying to say.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by mybuddyinc

++++ Basically what I was trying to say.

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

The other way it can affect collectors like you (And me too!) is in how the prices of the expensive stuff set the prices for the less expensive stuff.

The pricing for cards is primarily controlled by demand. Rarity can create demand, but within some limits. If it was otherwise, I'd be a lot closer to wealthy than I am.

So lets say a card is a certain price - like maybe a 52 Mantle. The first one I saw in person cost the dealer who had it around 900, either a record, or close to it at the time. And it was pretty nice. Since I had little money I hoped to someday "settle" for a beat one for maybe 100. Or, roughly 10% of a really nice one. And that ratio seems to hold since 1980, a fairly nice one a 6 or so is 30,000+ and a beater around 3-4000.

Now lets assume there's been rampant shilling at one major auction(Pretty easy assumption) - and that the prices they supposedly got are part of what drives the other auctions results. How much of the higher prices since 1980 are real? certainly not ALL of it, and certainly not none of it. Since the shilled results would add to each other over several years, lets say 25% of the current price level is from the shilling. By extension, the price of the "A" card is also inflated by 25%. So it should really be maybe 2500-3000.
AHA! you say. "But I still can't afford one so it doesn't affect me"

Well, the price of the Mantle helps drive the prices of the other high numbers by increasing the popularity of the set. And those prices in turn help drive the prices of the rest of the set. (And the rest of the 50's sets too. )So if we look at maybe half of that effect being seen in the lower numbered cards then the average commons that sell for $10 should really sell for 8-9. And that is at a level that affects pretty much everyone.

If you don't mind paying 12-25% more for cards, I've a whole bunch I'd happily sell at 25% over the current prices.

Steve Birmingham

[mybuddyinc]

It has been brought up a few times that this ** pathetic crap ** only effects high end collectors. I do agree that is the case in most situations. HOWEVER, I do also believe it does effect “us” lower/middle end collectors in many situations:

Say someone was to bid on a lot of 500 middle grade, raw T206s. He wins the lot at $10,000 (which is in the “big boy” range). That's $20/card. If he's a dealer / flipper (which is fine), he could sell them at $25 a card and make a decent profit. And a buyer would be happy at that price.

NOW, say he was shilled up to $12,000. Then the cards are $24 each. He would then have to pass that “bump” onto his buyers. So, now, he's selling these “shilled” cards at $30 each.

You can say “only $5” difference. BUT it adds up over the long run of anyone's “low to mid grade” set. As well as, if not worse, giving a false, inflated worth of the cards (just like the “big” cards).

IMO, everyone's screwed. Very sad, indeed.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by whitehse

My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue.

Andrew -

One quick look at the list of shill bidding will make it apparent that your statement isn't correct. For example, look at all of the pricing of the items from the Feb-09 auction.

And this shill bidding affected pricing across the entire hobby. It doesn't matter if you were a Mastro bidder or not.

Bill

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Doug Allen is a douche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets.
I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

+1

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

Duluth speaks da truth. Spelled out like a hammer slamming down on a nail.