the list (of criminals) is revealed

[ullmandds]

But on the other hand...it seems lots where groups "collude" seem to sell at higher prices as individual collectors are usually willing to pay more for a card they want/need...and not have to deal with reselling the rest.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

But on the other hand...it seems lots where groups "collude" seem to sell at higher prices as individual collectors are usually willing to pay more for a card they want/need...and not have to deal with reselling the rest.

Right. Think about it from the perspective of the consignor. If you have, say, a high grade low pop common that only a few guys are in the market for and they get together and say Joe you take this one we'll stay out and wait for the next one, the consignor is going to be livid. If you have a large lot with cards that appeal to different guys, who might not have bid at all because they don't want to pay for the whole lot and have to sell it off to get their one or couple of cards, then the consignor would be delighted if they pool their resources and bid even if it's collectively, because it's another bidder in the mix and probably one who is going to go pretty high.

[TheNightmanCometh]

I have passed on countless numbers of lots because I only needed a few cards and the price wasn't worth it. If the cards I want total $30 and the lot is selling for $50, why would I bid on it? Doesn't make sense.

So, I don't think it's colluding at all when a group of collectors get together and buy a lot and then distribute the lot among each other. Most of those guys would have never even bid on the lot if it was just them bidding on their own.

[sago]

I was at a live auction where two people start out bidding against each other, and then one stops and they split the lot. The auctioneer was ticked off. BTW, both of those people are on the list in this thread. One works for a major auction house, and one is involved in a grading company. I am not going to name them, as it's hearsay, but I spoke to the auction house owner afterwards and he confirmed that it happened. Definitely collusion.

How would he know? He is familiar with both of them, their bidding patterns, and they were sitting next to each other, when they spoke, and one of them stopped bidding. BION

[drcy]

There are cases of bidder collusion to suppress bidding and there are cases where a group of collectors each of limited financial means and collecting needs going into together/pooling together their funds to get a large group lot. Two different cases, and the latter may in fact raise the final winner price. The latter can allow bidders of limited financial means and specific collecting needs to enter the bidding where, due to the largeness/variety and expense of the lot, they would pass on the lot on their own.

[slidekellyslide]

I attend 50-75 live auctions per year, there are 4 dealers who are constantly colluding with one another. Lots of times it's to share a lot and other times it's an agreement to not bid against one another. They almost always come to me to get me to try and "share" with them when it comes to certain items like postcards or Husker football memorabilia. There is only one reason they do this. To save money. The auctioneers know this is going on. I have even had conversations with them and they know who it is and they know when it's going on. They don't do anything about it I guess because those 4 dealers also happen to be their best customers.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by drcy

There are cases of bidder collusion to suppress bidding and there are cases where a group of collectors each of limited financial means and collecting needs going into together/pooling together their funds to get a large group lot. Two different cases, and the latter may in fact raise the final winner price. The latter can allow bidders of limited financial means and specific collecting needs to enter the bidding where, due to the largeness/variety and expense of the lot, they would pass on the lot on their own.

I still can not understand the rationale of combining different items together into one lot. A good one recently (about 1-2 weeks ago) really ticked me off. A 1971 Padres team-autographed baseball was combined with a 1975 Reds team-autographed baseball. I collect Padres items, and was very interested in the baseball, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a premium for it because I'm also forced to also be bidding on a 1975 Reds (World Champions) baseball!

Steve

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I still can not understand the rationale of combining different items together into one lot. A good one recently (about 1-2 weeks ago) really ticked me off. A 1971 Padres team-autographed baseball was combined with a 1975 Reds team-autographed baseball. I collect Padres items, and was very interested in the baseball, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a premium for it because I'm also forced to also be bidding on a 1975 Reds (World Champions) baseball!

Steve

Resellers like everything but the kitchen sink variety lots (at bulk discount), collectors don't. My scenario #2 allows the collectors to join in on the bidding-- which is good for the consignor. Resellers like the lots because they break them down and resell at markup the smaller pieces to the same collectors.

And I agree that scenario #2 may point to the auction house bundling together the items poorly. Pairing a Madonna autographed corset with a 1957 OPC hocket set may not be the optimal pairing to maximize bidding.

"I don't know. There's this guy in Toronto."

[TheNightmanCometh]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I still can not understand the rationale of combining different items together into one lot. A good one recently (about 1-2 weeks ago) really ticked me off. A 1971 Padres team-autographed baseball was combined with a 1975 Reds team-autographed baseball. I collect Padres items, and was very interested in the baseball, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a premium for it because I'm also forced to also be bidding on a 1975 Reds (World Champions) baseball!

Steve

Are you sure it wasn't just a lazy seller using a pic of both baseballs and only selling one of them?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by drcy

There are cases of bidder collusion to suppress bidding and there are cases where a group of collectors each of limited financial means and collecting needs going into together/pooling together their funds to get a large group lot. Two different cases, and the latter may in fact raise the final winner price. The latter can allow bidders of limited financial means and specific collecting needs to enter the bidding where, due to the largeness/variety and expense of the lot, they would pass on the lot on their own.

+1. A joint effort is the only way I can get in on one of those ridiculous AH mega lots. If cheap enough I will buy a hundred cards to get five, but if not, I have to pass entirely. I know for a fact that these sort of joint bid efforts raise the hammer prices on lots because I've lost out on certain items that were underbid by the group that would not have been bid at all by the individuals involved.