the list (of criminals) is revealed

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by RGold

I was the consignor of a 1955 Red Man set in the August, 2007 Mastro Auctions which appears on the list being discussed. It is the only item where my name is listed as consignor and Peter Spaeth as the bidder.

Peter has already related the facts and expressed views as I see them. People may question my ethics but I ask that they at least acknowledge that this was the lone entry on a very long list, and that this one transaction was much different than many of those listed. I have had many private transactions with people on this board and as a seller and buyer on eBay, and I hope my past dealings are at least considered before passing judgment.

I made the decision to consign this set with Mastro Auctions despite the fact they would not use a reserve or high starting bid. They told me that they would allow me to select one bidder to place what constitutes a hidden reserve, as long as I understood that if that bid was the winning bid, I would have to pay a buyer's premium on that amount.

I assumed this was an acceptable practice as I was told this was done on other Mastro auction lots. At that time I believe Mastro Auctions was considered the premier auction house in our hobby.

I have been a member on this board for about 8 years, and have read the many discussions regarding shill bidding. My understanding and views have evolved over that time like I am sure it has for many other members. I understand and agree that using a hidden reserve in the way Mastro Auctions suggested is wrong. I only ask that the members here consider that this was done in 2007, that it was recommended by the leading auction house, that it was done once, that the hidden reserve was a fraction of the value of the lot, and that the buyer's premium was paid by me.

There was no intent to deceive anyone. This set was #1 on the PSA Registry by a very large margin. Every card was the highest graded at that time and almost half of the 50 cards were the only ones graded at that level. Any one interested in Red Man cards could see that I retired the set before the auction and then re-registered the set after the auction showing that the set had not changed hands.

Finally, and most importantly, I want to clarify the record. Peter is a good friend and wrote his explanation in such a way as not to distance himself from me, but the fact of the matter is that he did not place these bids, I did. He did know what I was doing because we discussed how I had been instructed to proceed by Doug Allen, and he does not deny that, but he was not an active participant in the bidding. The worst part of this whole affair is that an honest, good guy is being hurt for doing me a favor.

I don't know this individual but do want to ask one question.
When Mastro refused to take the set with a high minimum or reserve why would you not search for another auction house that would take it. The competition among auction houses is fierce and I am sure you could have found one of the leading auction houses who would have taken it under your terms.

[MRSPORTSCARDCOLLECTOR]

As a newbie a few questions I like to ask is does anybody think this news will affect the market for Topps 1952 Mickey Mantle card or other similar much sought after cards?
Do some of these high sought after cards have artificial higher value because of this?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BASEBALLCARDGURU

As a newbie a few questions I like to ask is does anybody think this news will affect the market for Topps 1952 Mickey Mantle card or other similar much sought after cards?
Do some of these high sought after cards have artificial higher value because of this?

So that is a great question. But you won't get a good answer until three years down the road and see how it affects future bidding. If the next three high grade '52T Mantles all go for $400-500K, then that's the "true value" of the card in that grade. If it sells for $370, then $340, then $300, then people bidding are showing that they've been affected by this news and are no longer willing to set records with that card.

[drcy]

I never considered a single sale a determination of market value anyway. The $3 million for the Mark McGwire ball was just what one idiot with money to burn was willing to pay. Even though someone paid $3 million, the ball was never worth $3 million. Didn't matter what it sold for. Prices often go down drastically when one big spender leaves the market or the two people who want the card the most get theirs. Good statistical analysis usually starts by throwing out the highest and lowest numbers.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by BASEBALLCARDGURU

As a newbie a few questions I like to ask is does anybody think this news will affect the market for Topps 1952 Mickey Mantle card or other similar much sought after cards?
Do some of these high sought after cards have artificial higher value because of this?

uh......yah!

[Kenny Cole]

I have tried to stay out thus far. I am now unsuccessful. I am not on either list simply because I didn't' win one of those auctions. I was probably one of those legitimate bidders who bid Ryan up at the same time the auction house or consignor/friend was doing that. We have similar interests. Even by losing, I screwed my friend.

I get all the stuff about altering the price point of the PSA 8 card and whatnot. Blah, blah, blah. Its wonderful to have the best card ever and I am certain that getting that 8.5 so you can drop that ratty 8 is exhilarating. Its just the shits when you find out you paid substantially more than you would have had things been honest. Yawn.

But to me, it is much more basic. Ryan won a lot we probably both bid on. It cost him more than it should have, because neither one of us knew we were both being cheated to begin with. I probably beat him on one of the other auctions that have no bidding records that was also shilled.

Peter, you were absolutely wrong. I get the reasoning though. There is a long list of people, myself included (on multiple occasions), who do things for friends while knowing that they are ... wrong. The fact that you did it for a friend doesn't make it less wrong, it just makes it more understandable. Been there, done that. Can't really shoot at you too hard.

That list makes me sick. I hope that its wrong while I know it probably isn't. What a betrayal. I'm historically an SGC guy, but probably no longer. Just a sad revelation all around.

[Shoeless Moe]

Leon, ban these son of a bitches!!!! They come back under an assumed name owe well, they wouldn't like that anyway, they have to big of egos and want the world to know them, well who gives a rats ass about them, BAN 'EM ALL!!!!!! Judge Kennesaw Mountain Luckey!!!!

[ElCabron]

Kenny,

Your bids on the particular lot I won that is on this list didn't affect the price at all. You didn't drive me up. You were probably the 3rd high bidder. Had you been the underbidder, it wouldn't list my name in the "victim" column. You bidding against me is just healthy competition. Nothing wrong with that. But after you had maxed out (if you were even bidding on this lot), I was shilled up another $2,000+ of pure shill bids that had nothing to do with you.

I'm just happy the list is now public because I should be receiving a check any day now from Doug Allen as restitution, right? Yep.

Also, the main reason all these scumbags on the list aren't responding in this thread is that they're too busy spending everyone's money they made, consequence-free, from all of this. I'm guessing quite a few of them made deals to tell the truth about Mastro and Allen that got them off the hook, but also keeps them from posting here about any of it. This is especially true of the employees of Mastro and Legendary that many of us know well and consider to be friends. They haven't posted here because they are guilty.

The real lesson here is that crime absolutely does pay, and pay very well. So, congrats to all you silent scumbags who are reading this in your huge houses bought with money you stole. Sleep well tonight, douchebags!

-Ryan

[Klrdds]

I have not read each and every post on this topic but I have read about 3/4 ths of them so forgive me if this topic has been addressed already.
A lot of us old time / veteran collectors have to wonder how long has the Mastro shill bidding been actually occurring ? Since only a few years of results are available one must ask how long did this go on ?
Does it go back to Mastro - Steinbach auctions ?
Does it go back to mergers with Oregon Trading , which later did business for a time as Mastro West, and with Ron Oser and their merger into a bigger Mastro Auction company ? No harm is meant to Ron Oser with this comment.
Does this prove an old adage of that " as long as there are auctions there will always be a phantom ( shill ) bidder " that I heard as a warning years ago when phone and fax bids were accepted as the auction business began in lieu of live auctions .

Also to digress was a greater scam attempted when Bill Mastro came out with an attempt to sell shares in his auction house to a select few collectors and bidders and customers . I was offered shares but turned them down as overvalued and a bad long term investment with little prospect of an adequate ROI. Does any one remember this ? Looking back now it seems like a Ponzi scheme was attempted .

[drcy]

No doubt lots can be shilled without consignors' knowledge. The auction houses get a percentage of the final bids and would like all boats to rise, and some outside collectors like their investments to maintain their market value. Some collectors are willing to buy cards just to 'protect' the market value of the copies they already own. Of course there's nothing errant with honestly (I said honestly, as opposed to a miscalculated shillingly) buying the cards, other than it may be seen as a dubious investment strategy.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Kenny,

Your bids on the particular lot I won that is on this list didn't affect the price at all. You didn't drive me up. You were probably the 3rd high bidder. Had you been the underbidder, it wouldn't list my name in the "victim" column. You bidding against me is just healthy competition. Nothing wrong with that. But after you had maxed out (if you were even bidding on this lot), I was shilled up another $2,000+ of pure shill bids that had nothing to do with you.

I'm just happy the list is now public because I should be receiving a check any day now from Doug Allen as restitution, right? Yep.

Also, the main reason all these scumbags on the list aren't responding in this thread is that they're too busy spending everyone's money they made, consequence-free, from all of this. I'm guessing quite a few of them made deals to tell the truth about Mastro and Allen that got them off the hook, but also keeps them from posting here about any of it. This is especially true of the employees of Mastro and Legendary that many of us know well and consider to be friends. They haven't posted here because they are guilty.

The real lesson here is that crime absolutely does pay, and pay very well. So, congrats to all you silent scumbags who are reading this in your huge houses bought with money you stole. Sleep well tonight, douchebags!

-Ryan

Bravo!

And I would add a special raised middle finger to those gutless hypocrites who had friends bid with Mastro or Legendary Auctions for them while publicly decrying the fraud problem.

[HRBAKER]

NO ONE deserves to be a victim of fraud or to be cheated period.
IMO if you continue to do business with people who you know are dishonest or have strong reason to believe are unsavory and find yourself a victim, the biggest thing you have to complain about is your lack of self-control.

[Rickyy]

[QUOTE=Kenny Cole;1497580]I have tried to stay out thus far. I am now unsuccessful. I am not on either list simply because I didn't' win one of those auctions. I was probably one of those legitimate bidders who bid Ryan up at the same time the auction house or consignor/friend was doing that. We have similar interests. Even by losing, I screwed my friend.

I get all the stuff about altering the price point of the PSA 8 card and whatnot. Blah, blah, blah. Its wonderful to have the best card ever and I am certain that getting that 8.5 so you can drop that ratty 8 is exhilarating. Its just the shits when you find out you paid substantially more than you would have had things been honest. Yawn.

But to me, it is much more basic. Ryan won a lot we probably both bid on. It cost him more than it should have, because neither one of us knew we were both being cheated to begin with. I probably beat him on one of the other auctions that have no bidding records that was also shilled.

QUOTE]

+1 on that... it's just plain wrong to bid on something for reasons other than because you want that item...by someone coming in with nefarious intentions ends up screwing us all...

Ricky Yoneda

[RGold]

I have not consigned many items but every auction house I have talked to does not like high starting bids because it looks bad to have unsold items. Also, there were not as many auction houses in 2007. Today, I see some of the newer and smaller auction houses using high starting bids, and I agree it is a bad look to see many lots unsold.

I am not sure why more auction houses will not use reserves except most buyers do not like participating in them.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by RGold

I have not consigned many items but every auction house I have talked to does not like high starting bids because it looks bad to have unsold items. Also, there were not as many auction houses in 2007. Today, I see some of the newer and smaller auction houses using high starting bids, and I agree it is a bad look to see many lots unsold.

I am not sure why more auction houses will not use reserves except most buyers do not like participating in them.

With the advent of VCP, I don't mind a high starting bid as long as it is under what the average selling price. It is when the starting bid is higher than the average selling price, and then you have to pay an exorbitant buyer's premium is what turns bidders off. With all the info that is available, it is easy to see if you are getting ripped off or not.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I don't know this individual but do want to ask one question.
When Mastro refused to take the set with a high minimum or reserve why would you not search for another auction house that would take it. The competition among auction houses is fierce and I am sure you could have found one of the leading auction houses who would have taken it under your terms.

Especially for one that was #1 on the PSA register by a large margin...

[D.P.Johnson]

The odds must be astronomical that the one and only time two people conspire to shill at auction they both get caught...bad luck I guess...

[Prince Hal]

I don't personally know any of the folks on the "shill" list. If the information as presented is true, Ronald Goldberg and Peter Spaeth and all the others thus far identified are crooks. I'm sure you are not bad people and you're not Isis. But anyone who manipulates the market is a crook. You enter an item for the market to decide and you win or you lose. That's your gamble. Forget the shill moniker it's too misleading. You are just common, but repentant (sort of), crooks. Everyone is sorry or has an excuse when they get caught and the prisons are full of innocent people. Mia culpa all you want. You can't unring a bell. Very sad. Duncan MacKenzie

[RCMcKenzie]

Not only is 'not offering to pay more than you are willing to spend' not "dumb", it's a tautology. Be careful out there, gang.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

I don't personally know any of the folks on the "shill" list. If the information as presented is true, Ronald Goldberg and Peter Spaeth and all the others thus far identified are crooks. I'm sure you are not bad people and you're not Isis. But anyone who manipulates the market is a crook. You enter an item for the market to decide and you win or you lose. That's your gamble. Forget the shill moniker it's too misleading. You are just common, but repentant (sort of), crooks. Everyone is sorry or has an excuse when they get caught and the prisons are full of innocent people. Mia culpa all you want. You can't unring a bell. Very sad. Duncan MacKenzie

I disagree. Sure, they got caught, but they owned up to their mistakes. Do you remember the Joe Pankiewicz threads? He was caught multiple times shilling his own consignments with Probstein...even accused of doctoring cards to get grade bumps. Probstein was made aware of Joe's actions and did absolutely nothing. And when Joe finally responded, of course he denied everything and told us how honest he was, blah, blah, blah. Heck, he even called for an apology to Rick. All the proof was right there, but he still denied it. Peter and Ron have admitted their mistake and take responsibility for their actions. To me, that says a lot about their character as opposed to people like Joe Pankiewicz or Rick Probation.

I wonder if those with the pitchforks have bought anything from Probstein since that mess a couple years ago? I'd be willing to bet so. You'll buy from a guy that allows shill bidding, but you're so quick to condemn here. I made a vow at that point to never buy anything from Probstein again AND I HAVE NOT! And it wasn't because of the shilling in his auctions, it was because he turned a blind eye and LET IT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. So again I ask, how many of you pointing fingers here have bought from Probstein since then? Post your eBay IDs and let's find out.