the list (of criminals) is revealed

bobbyw8469 · #1 01-29-2016, 02:23 PM

Well said David James. I am glad someone besides me recognizes that.

Dpeck100 · #2 01-29-2016, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Well said David James. I am glad someone besides me recognizes that.

Is this the dude that got caught up in the from a sealed case fiasco with the wax tray's?

bobbyw8469 · #3 01-29-2016, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Is this the dude that got caught up in the from a sealed case fiasco with the wax tray's?

No? LOL....I have never even bought a wax tray or a sealed case. I once bought some unopened Fleer basketball from Huggins & Scott that PSA board members were no good, because I didn't buy them from BBCE. I promptly pulled about 5 Jordan cards from the packs....ROTFLMAO

Does that count for anything?

Dpeck100 · #4 01-29-2016, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

No? LOL....I have never even bought a wax tray or a sealed case. I once bought some unopened Fleer basketball from Huggins & Scott that PSA board members were no good, because I didn't buy them from BBCE. I promptly pulled about 5 Jordan cards from the packs....ROTFLMAO

Does that count for anything?

Not you. I realize you are the guy with the lizard on his shoulder.

David James. Is he the guy that led the break of the 1980 Topps FASC wax tray?

vintagetoppsguy · #5 01-29-2016, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Not you. I realize you are the guy with the lizard on his shoulder.

David James. Is he the guy that led the break of the 1980 Topps FASC wax tray?

Nope. Not me. Once again, you're wrong. But, hey, at least you're consistent.

SAllen2556 · #6 01-29-2016, 03:20 PM

I have a few questions for veteran collectors and dealers, as I am just a simple business owner who collects but has never spent more than $800 on anything hobby related. And btw, I'm not, in any way, trying to mitigate was has happened. One of the names on that list makes me believe I was probably a victim myself once.

But as veterans of the hobby, when you placed bids on high profile stuff at major auctions, wasn't there a voice in the back of your noggins that told you it was very likely some sort of shilling was occurring, yet you bid anyway because if the price was what you deemed fair, you told yourself you could live with it? Don't even us amateurs believe that when we're bidding on ebay?

Are you veterans really shocked at all by any of this? If you're in this hobby to make a living, it's just way too easy to cheat, and I imagine for many it becomes almost a necessity for survival. The rewards far, far outweigh the punishment. And it's been that way for decades. And frankly, I don't see how this changes anything. So one or two high profile guys do a little jail time. Do you think for one minute that's going to prevent shilling in the future? I bet there are some who hope prices drop at the major auction houses just so they can swoop in for the bargains! And do veteran collectors with large holdings really mind if prices are artificially inflated? I wonder.

The people here are incredibly knowledgable about this hobby. This is an amazing website - it's one of the very few (but by far the best) places on the internet which acts as any sort of check to the rampant dishonesty in this hobby. Just reading the stuff here has saved me a ton of money, and I appreciate the efforts enough to buy many here an adult beverage if I ever ran into you! But should it come down to one free website run by people who care to police the entire industry? I just don't understand why no one has ever put together some sort of association that polices this hobby. It's way overdue, and obviously necessary.

Mark · #7 01-29-2016, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

The people here are incredibly knowledgable about this hobby. This is an amazing website - it's one of the very few (but by far the best) places on the internet which acts as any sort of check to the rampant dishonesty in this hobby. Just reading the stuff here has saved me a ton of money, and I appreciate the efforts enough to buy many here an adult beverage if I ever ran into you! But should it come down to one free website run by people who care to police the entire industry? I just don't understand why no one has ever put together some sort of association that polices this hobby. It's way overdue, and obviously necessary.

Maybe the industry leaders should appoint a respected public figure to step in and clean up the auctions and 3rd party grading companies. You know, appoint a judge Landis figure to be Commissioner of Sports Collecting. Anyone who is banned for life could surreptitiously collect Black Sox memorabilia. Any suggestions?

GasHouseGang · #8 01-29-2016, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I have a few questions for veteran collectors and dealers, as I am just a simple business owner who collects but has never spent more than $800 on anything hobby related. And btw, I'm not, in any way, trying to mitigate was has happened. One of the names on that list makes me believe I was probably a victim myself once.

But as veterans of the hobby, when you placed bids on high profile stuff at major auctions, wasn't there a voice in the back of your noggins that told you it was very likely some sort of shilling was occurring, yet you bid anyway because if the price was what you deemed fair, you told yourself you could live with it? Don't even us amateurs believe that when we're bidding on ebay?

Are you veterans really shocked at all by any of this? If you're in this hobby to make a living, it's just way too easy to cheat, and I imagine for many it becomes almost a necessity for survival. The rewards far, far outweigh the punishment. And it's been that way for decades. And frankly, I don't see how this changes anything. So one or two high profile guys do a little jail time. Do you think for one minute that's going to prevent shilling in the future? I bet there are some who hope prices drop at the major auction houses just so they can swoop in for the bargains! And do veteran collectors with large holdings really mind if prices are artificially inflated? I wonder.

The people here are incredibly knowledgable about this hobby. This is an amazing website - it's one of the very few (but by far the best) places on the internet which acts as any sort of check to the rampant dishonesty in this hobby. Just reading the stuff here has saved me a ton of money, and I appreciate the efforts enough to buy many here an adult beverage if I ever ran into you! But should it come down to one free website run by people who care to police the entire industry? I just don't understand why no one has ever put together some sort of association that polices this hobby. It's way overdue, and obviously necessary.

I was thinking the same thing Scott. It made me think of this scene in Casablanca. How is anyone really surprised?

bcornell · #9 01-29-2016, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Are you veterans really shocked at all by any of this?

Not even the smallest bit. This hobby was loaded with bad actors when I got into it in the late 80's, the 90's were the same, and the 21st century has been no different. It's very unlikely to change even after this 'revelation', which really can't be surprising to anyone who was actively in the hobby during 2007-2009.

There is one very good thing to come out of this, that Bill Mastro has permanently exited the hobby. In my opinion, all of the other players combined can't compete with the damage he did by himself.

Bill

gnaz01 · #10 01-29-2016, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcornell

There is one very good thing to come out of this, that Bill Mastro has permanently exited the hobby.

Bill,

Not for a second do I believe Bill has exited the hobby. We may not see his name but it is my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) that he is still "in the hobby" somehow.

Brian Van Horn · #11 01-29-2016, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcornell

Not even the smallest bit. This hobby was loaded with bad actors when I got into it in the late 80's, the 90's were the same, and the 21st century has been no different. It's very unlikely to change even after this 'revelation', which really can't be surprising to anyone who was actively in the hobby during 2007-2009.

There is one very good thing to come out of this, that Bill Mastro has permanently exited the hobby. In my opinion, all of the other players combined can't compete with all of the damage he did by himself.

Bill

Bill,

If the guy used shill bidding to boost his profits, what makes you think when he gets out he wont shill his advice?

tbob · #12 01-30-2016, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I have a few questions for veteran collectors and dealers, as I am just a simple business owner who collects but has never spent more than $800 on anything hobby related. And btw, I'm not, in any way, trying to mitigate was has happened. One of the names on that list makes me believe I was probably a victim myself once.

But as veterans of the hobby, when you placed bids on high profile stuff at major auctions, wasn't there a voice in the back of your noggins that told you it was very likely some sort of shilling was occurring, yet you bid anyway because if the price was what you deemed fair, you told yourself you could live with it? Don't even us amateurs believe that when we're bidding on ebay?

Are you veterans really shocked at all by any of this? If you're in this hobby to make a living, it's just way too easy to cheat, and I imagine for many it becomes almost a necessity for survival. The rewards far, far outweigh the punishment. And it's been that way for decades. And frankly, I don't see how this changes anything. So one or two high profile guys do a little jail time. Do you think for one minute that's going to prevent shilling in the future? I bet there are some who hope prices drop at the major auction houses just so they can swoop in for the bargains! And do veteran collectors with large holdings really mind if prices are artificially inflated? I wonder.

The people here are incredibly knowledgeable about this hobby. This is an amazing website - it's one of the very few (but by far the best) places on the internet which acts as any sort of check to the rampant dishonesty in this hobby. Just reading the stuff here has saved me a ton of money, and I appreciate the efforts enough to buy many here an adult beverage if I ever ran into you! But should it come down to one free website run by people who care to police the entire industry? I just don't understand why no one has ever put together some sort of association that polices this hobby. It's way overdue, and obviously necessary.

Fair questions. I've stayed quiet on all this but I've decided to put in my 2 cents. As one of the older collectors in the hobby, I've been been bidding through auction houses for over 30 years. Yes, I've suspected shilling was taking place and hated it, but there were veteran collectors bidding, suspecting shilling yet continuing to bid because the final winning bid was a fair one, or even a good deal. So the answer to your question is, yes. I have won a number of cards through Mastro over the years and I know I paid too much, but sometimes you just gritted your teeth and accepted that you got what you wanted at a price you considered reasonable.
With regard to the names of the shilling list, I spotted names like Peter Calderon whom I consider a friend and whom I have always trusted and respected and others that I consider hobby friends who I have had private selling experiences with that were good and fair transactions. I also saw a few others who I considered to be arrogant a@@holes whom I disliked for their attitudes and lack of character. and anyone who knows me well knows exactly who I am talking about. I had no surprise seeing their names pop up on the lists. A real mixed bag.
As far as the post about the collector who taught the students about card collecting and the hobby, my suggestion would be to quickly point out the true hobbyists and collectors who are absolutely great people, great to know, great to deal with, and great people in general. I have met (many in person, many more through Net54 and its predecessors) so many collectors and collector/dealers and dealers over the past 30 years that I know they are the backbone of the hobby. All ages, all backgrounds, all over our country. Tell your students about them. They are the REAL reason the hobby survives.
Finally with regard to SGC, I am one of those collectors who was sickened by the Forman revelations, not because I expected more from him, but because I have a huge number of pre-war cards in SGC holders. I always liked the customer service, the way the cards were displayed in the holders and what I felt was more accurate grading of the cards than other TPG companies. If SGC goes away, I'll still have the cards (and I always bought my cards for the cards not the holders anyway) and they will still mean the same to me, even if the prices might dip without the company in existence anymore. I also have a large number of PSA cards and I always knew that a PSA 5 would bring more than an SGC 60 in the pre-war market but that's life.
Finally, I realize that there were different reasons for the shilling, sometimes it was out of business greed, sometimes because of events like divorces which eliminated collections and forced sales, friendships, etc., but it still didn't justify it. For those who posted and explained why, I'm willing to accept it and go on, we all make mistakes. But it wasn't right.
Cheers
Bob M.

nsaddict · #13 01-29-2016, 03:21 PM

This is just a 3 year window, no doubt there's much more. Wonder what will come out of all this after the fact? And what will the current companies do to those currently mentioned on the bad boy list. Example, will the CEO of PSA take action against the 3 autograph experts currently employed? And what will this do in regards to Forman, the other BIG company? Still a few others mentioned in the AH business that hasn't stepped forward. Will they lose business in form of bidders/consignors? Time will tell I guess. Quite disgusting to say the least!

iwantitiwinit · #14 01-29-2016, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsaddict

This is just a 3 year window, no doubt there's much more. Wonder what will come out of all this after the fact? And what will the current companies do to those currently mentioned on the bad boy list. Example, will the CEO of PSA take action against the 3 autograph experts currently employed? And what will this do in regards to Forman, the other BIG company? Still a few others mentioned in the AH business that hasn't stepped forward. Will they lose business in form of bidders/consignors? Time will tell I guess. Quite disgusting to say the least!

Relative to taking actions against those currently employed, if they want to regain any level of credibility there is only one thing to do. Something that I would think all our employers would do instantly upon proof of illegal or criminal action. The sooner the better. No tears.

bobbyw8469 · #15 01-29-2016, 03:42 PM

David James was right. David Peck only comes over here for drama. And harassment. Well....I guess he found it in this thread. And since the PSA board has died so much, he wants to stir the pot here.

kailes2872 · #16 01-29-2016, 03:48 PM

Peter,

I am sure you don't care about this post. My inbox is full, so if you choose to reply, you can do it here. If you don't that is fine as well. In late, 2014, when I was having an admitted meltdown and several on the board provided positive feedback and counsel, you were snarky and mean in the post. You have that right. It is an embarrassing thread for me to go back and read in retrospect and I deserved every word.

I admired you and your knowledge of the hobby. I admired your collection. On June 4th, Brent from PWCC posted. You had some very pointed criticism about his business practices - up to and including comments about hidden reserves. I have avoided PWCC in recent months - primarly because of my respect for you and the feedback that you provided.

Perhaps there are shades of gray in the hidden reserve that you placed on the lot. I tend to disagree, but, as we have established, I am low-end post war guy with some drama queen tendencies, so my opinion doesn't matter. However, If I were Brent at PWCC, I would take issue with the way that you were quick to smoke out his perceived issues while quickly sweeping this under the rug.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=206854

reading this after the fact, has some irony.

In reply to post 26

Quote:

Which auction houses still have hidden reserves?

(post 27)

From Post 125

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet another example of Hamlet's "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."

KEVIN AILES

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