Altered cards...just an opinion

[Leon]

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

Originally Posted by irv

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

The high grade 52 Mantles are still very rare, especially considering the demand for them. Last time I checked there are 6 PSA 9s and 3 10s. I'm sure there are board members who know where all 9 of these cards are, or most of them any way. I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

Intriguing prediction. Over $2.8M? Certainly possible at this rate.

[Leon]

Nine high grade Micks?..The '52 Micks aren't rare compared to most of what we collect. They are quite common relatively speaking.
...Hundreds of our cards (and probably thousands) are more rare. Few are as valuable due to the DEMAND though.....

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The high grade 52 Mantles are still very rare, especially considering the demand for them. Last time I checked there are 6 PSA 9s and 3 10s. I'm sure there are board members who know where all 9 of these cards are, or most of them any way. I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

[glynparson]

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by glynparson

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

+1....Probably passes 4 million. PSA SMR price right now for a PSA 9 I believe is about 1.5 million...

[CMIZ5290]

I just went online with PSA, and there are in fact 3 10's, that surprised me as I thought there were 2 with one being fairly recent. Anyway, I do agree with Glyn's comment about over $2.8 million, my estimate may have been a tad high....

[conor912]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I just went online with PSA, and there are in fact 3 10's, that surprised me as I thought there were 2 with one being fairly recent. Anyway, I do agree with Glyn's comment about over $2.8 million, my estimate may have been a tad high....

Like I said, definitely possible.....though at that price there's got to be a huge psychological barrier. Are you, as the guy willing to bid that much, willing to pay the most ever for a baseball card, especially one without the folklore of the Wagner. It comes down to which is worth more, a card with less than 20 (or whatever the number is) known copies, or a card that's merely a condition rarity. Regardless, when it does happen, it'll be fun watch, that's for sure!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

Maybe the guy who owns 4 of the 6 will give up one.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nine high grade Micks?..The '52 Micks aren't rare compared to most of what we collect. They are quite common relatively speaking.
...Hundreds of our cards (and probably thousands) are more rare. Few are as valuable due to the DEMAND though.....

Yea compared to rare pre-war stuff I'm sure that is true. But almost everyone who has collected in the last 50 years has dreamed of owning this card one day. 9 in the world is still pretty low.

If a Net54 member, or any collector wins the powerball tonight I could see them spending a lot more than 2.8mil, or even 5 to get one of the 10s. I'd put the over/under right at 5 mil even without the powerball.

[kmac32]

When it comes to altered cards, it depends on what the alteration is and how it effects the presentation of the card. Alterations like soaking do not really bother me much. Trimming and rebacking are no go for me as is true for recoloring cards. It really depends.

[steve B]

The 52 Mantle is only uncommon in the very top grades. With just over 1300 graded by PSA alone I don't think I'd even call it uncommon. Its price is almost entirely because of demand.

I have a few altered cards. Some I knew were altered when I bought them, others I didn't. I don't even count the minor stuff that I don't think of as an alteration. Soaking scrapbook remnants off, light surface cleaning(NOT stain removal, just removing years of filth that's on the surface) Removing wrapper wax from the front, that sort of thing.

I do think there are alterations that get past TPG. With the setup they all have it's just not possible to catch the really well done ones every time. If they took more time they'd catch more.

At the same time undersize isn't always trimmed. But beyond a certain point an undersize card shouldn't be slabbed under the current system. If they had a qualifier for "undersize but not trimmed" it might be doable.

I'd like to see SGC use the rejection code flips instead of the "A". I think 3 of the 4 I've had rejected were unaltered but either undersize or had cuts too rough to grade. The trimmed one was trimmed for sure - I still can't figure out why I sent it in.

In most collecting original is always worth more than restored. Even cars, and a lot of the bicycle guys I know have come around from the older "restore everything" mentality. Original with a couple scratches is much better than restored.
Btw - there apparently are or were multiples of some famous art. They mentioned it on a show I saw about a possible second Mona Lisa. The artists studio would sometimes make smaller copies of larger works that they could sell a real profit center for some artists.

There's a lot of cards I'd be happy to have even altered. It's just a matter of balancing the price for altered compared to the price of an unaltered copy. And that of course requires disclosure.
A full price restoration? I'd have to think on that one. Probably not for me, I've never been too condition crazy.

Steve B