Altered cards...just an opinion

[Iwantmorecards77]

I once purchased an ungraded T213 Cobb Red Portrait from a major auctioneer. No mention of any alterations and it was a great looking card. While I would always only purchase major cards in SGC or PSA holders, I decided to go for it. Being relatively new to the vintage hobby at the time, it was a rookie mistake. Ended up losing almost $1,000 in the end - a tough pill to swallow.

PSA claimed it was altered and sent it back. I tried SGC and they called me to tell me it was trimmed and pressed. I decided to have it placed in an "A" holder.

I contacted the auctioneer. He claimed the auction does not accept 3rd party opinions and that it was past the limit for "returns." I pointed out other lots in the auction that they claimed ungraded cards to be altered - but not the lot I purchased. The only thing they could do for me was to send it back so they could put it in next year's auction, but it would be up to me to disclose the alterations. I declined the "offer."

I ended up selling it on eBay for less than half of what I paid for it - and disclosed all info on how I purchased it, what the auctioneer claimed, and the alterations SGC claimed it to have. It was quite the long item description. Haha

I was so frustrated with the situation, I just wanted to get rid of it. I believe a board member purchased it.

I know PSA and SGC make mistakes on cards that obtain numerical grades. They're humans and we all make mistakes, but I feel more comfortable purchasing cards in their holders (with numerical grades.) The one time I buy a major card raw - and it blows up in my face. Again - rookie mistake and a lesson learned.

Todd Mancuso

[Peter_Spaeth]

If an auction house does not disclose that a card is altered, it is fair for a bidder to assume it is not altered. I am sure there is verbiage in the terms and conditions saying they sell everything as is, but they should have stood behind it.

[pokerplyr80]

If I'm ever considering a higher end raw card online, I always ask for a guarantee that the card is authentic and unaltered. If nothing else you can gauge your interest from how they respond. I pass if they're unwilling to offer the guarantee.

[ls7plus]

We had a poll not too long ago, wherein, going by recollection, 76% (?) of us favored card restoration, as long as it was transparent, i.e., NO INTENT TO DECEIVE! I personally believe that restoration is indeed coming along those lines, and do not believe anything is wrong with it. Transparency could be achieved by the TPG's issuing guidelines (which enable ready detection), which, when followed, would result in a "restored" grade, perhaps accompanied by a numerical grade, or not, rather than "altered." In fact, I bought a 1929 R316 Kashin Mel Ott with that end in mind for a relative song--it was missing a small portion of a corner, had worn corners and a pinhole, but had centering far better than that typically found with this issue. Restored, it would make for a beautiful example of this great Giant's player.

We'll see what time does in this regard--restoration is condoned in some areas of collecting, but not others. As stated, as long as it is transparent, with no intent to deceive, there would be little opportunity for fraud.

Just my two cents worth,

Larry

[irv]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Card alterations, whether as subtle as a good water soaking, or as aggressive as a professional repair, is really a thought provoking topic. We all have out tolerances and opinions - which sometimes are amusingly snobbish. Let me first say that I in no way condone any form of deceit in the hobby.

New to all/most of this but I always wondered to what extent/lengths a person would go to in order to make their card better that what it actually is/was?

Never heard of a "Good water soaking" before, and I don't really care if the info doesn't want to be shared as I have no plans to do anything with my 52 Topps collection my Father gave me as I am 99.9% sure these cards are untouched, and like you, I don't condone that type of behavior with anything.

Originally Posted by Iwantmorecards77

I once purchased an ungraded T213 Cobb Red Portrait from a major auctioneer. No mention of any alterations and it was a great looking card. While I would always only purchase major cards in SGC or PSA holders, I decided to go for it. Being relatively new to the vintage hobby at the time, it was a rookie mistake. Ended up losing almost $1,000 in the end - a tough pill to swallow.

PSA claimed it was altered and sent it back. I tried SGC and they called me to tell me it was trimmed and pressed. I decided to have it placed in an "A" holder.


I ended up selling it on eBay for less than half of what I paid for it - and disclosed all info on how I purchased it, what the auctioneer claimed, and the alterations SGC claimed it to have. It was quite the long item description. Haha

I was so frustrated with the situation, I just wanted to get rid of it. I believe a board member purchased it.

I'm sure trimmed and pressed is exactly the way it sounds, and I assume some get missed/passed when getting graded? I am also sure some of these "alterations" are done professionally but someone with some serious skill too?

Good for you, that wasn't easy to do I'm sure!

I have a lot of 52's and I have never ever thought about even cleaning them up for fear of doing something bad to them. Serious question, do most, when they pick up cards, clean, wipe or do anything else to them even if they are keeping them for themselves?

[JustinD]

Nothing is more disappointing than finding an altered card in your collection that you thought was good.

I recently was doing a quick run through of my 33 Delong set in progress and an Warneke seemed a tad off that seemed fine before. I took a measurement and found indeed that this card was trimmed.

I just frustratingly bought a replacement graded a PSA 3.5, so I can replace it.

This is why I get pissed off.

[Rookiemonster]

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

[Leon]

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

Originally Posted by irv

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by irv

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

Comics are not "One Offs", and it is perfectly acceptable for comics to be altered. It does affect the price, and there are countless tales of collectors sending in their raw comics to CGC and receiving the (PLOD) "Purple Label of Death". It's identified as Professionally or Amateur restoration, Moderate or Extensive restoration, and even what the restoration is. And the price of the book reflects that. Look at the prices for "Amazing Fantasy 15" in, say, a 5.0 or 6.0, and check the pricing between a blue and a purple label.

There is a definite market for these things, and collectors can enjoy a 7.0 condition comic for a 4.0 price. To me, everyone wins when there is full, open disclosure.

While I don't profess to know every collectibles market, I have always felt the card game is the most stubborn in accepting altered items.

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

I also have not thought about a company specializing in restoring cards, although it exists in other areas. Great post on that, Rookiemonster. You've made me go "Aha!".